32 bit apps on a 64 bit OS???

First topic message reminder :

"tip po sa USA 64bit na lumalabas na bagong laptop and then mura pa, baka lang po meron kayong kilala although pwede din namang mag-order for shipment. Kapag 64-bit po ang gamit nyo wag po kayong mag-iinstall ng 64-bit na max kase gagamitin nya ung resources nyo di na kayo makakapag-multi task, 32 bit lang ganun din po kapag PC ang gamit nyo(by experience)."

---this statement was made hereabouts; I'm thinking its a bit "misleading". As one friend said; "why would I get a 64bit OS if not for its resources?"...
---but then the benefit of a doubt must be given; what's the general consensus on this?...

errrr... is this the right place to post this?...

@Galaites- I think may advantage din if you used to work on 32 bits applications especially max. Honestly, im 32 bit guy for very long time. Its not because i dont know the advantages of 64bits pero its all about software availability and compatibility. Lately ko na lng na push yung 64bits applications ko na walang mga problema. And guess what,ang laking naging advantage for me.Kse while working with 32 bits for long time, i learned a lot of optimization,good poly and scene management and many more na dati nalilimit ako no matter how fast my rig was. But now,having 64 bits applications, a lot of things were just a piece of cake. I can even rotate pan and zoom smoothly with 10 million polygons and rendering super hi res images like 6000px without putting them in region and network rendering. But if i were you bro,follow sir edosayla and sir hotrod advices.Its fine to work with 32 bits,kahit naman ako,im still modeling in 32bits max but rendering in 64bits. You'll never know nga naman kelan darating yung ganung situation na you will need the full power and available rams. I said i managed to render 6million polys in 32bits,yes,i guess its way more than that,pero walang kacguruhan yun bro lalo na kung malalaking projects. Maaring natsambahan ko lng or ok lng talga yung pag manage ko ng scene. Pero that time talgang nalimit lang ako sa render resolution.Max crashes at 2600px resolution,below that ok pa namn sa single cpu.
I hope this is now clear. Ganyan talga ang learning process.hehehehe..always takes a lot time.

I agree to Sir silvercrown..galing ng pagkaka-analyze..but in fairness to Sir Galaites remember sa text eh hindi natin fully naiexpress yung idea na gusto nating ipaabot kaya minsan hindi na natin masyado dinedetalye yung ibang subject kaya sometimes namimis-interpret.

Galing ng discussion..at attitude being professional..mga masters talaga!keep inspiring us mga Masters!

cloud20 wrote:

ruscadmcgyver wrote:salamat, mga sir dami kong natutunan sa inyo ngaun alam ko na ang specs na kailangan ko. kaya pala nag crush ang max ko tuwing mag render. dapat compatible lahat mapa os, software, mem, videocard, at mataas n processor. thanks mga sir sa technical

___there you go; positive feedback from the various influx of ideas within the thread... I'd like to encourage the others to join para kahit salusalungat ang opinions eh may benefit pa din...

finally peace. sir cloud I hope our earlier discussion was concluded. I will stick to the thing I know until the time that I dont need to. After all the confusion I realized that my eccentricity pays a bitter price. Your right about that you guys are always one step ahead of us but not all of us will be the kind of you...Truely a Master in all way. My sincerest respect.

bokkins wrote:@silvercrown: please don't attack galaites07 with such statements. we can always discuss the the problem by facing and discussing the problem itself. sana walang personalan dito and finger pointing na katulad sa congreso at senado.

master bokks, di po ako nagpi-finger point... im just being direct and upfront with master galaites here... giving him a detailed answer to what he's responded to me earlier...
i'm not attacking him personally... when i said he's failed means he failed in his claim, he's theory... nothing's personal po yan...
in some other threads me and master galaites shared same opinion and arguments, exchanged some compliments... but then again wala din pong personalan...

galaites wrote:finally peace. sir cloud I hope our earlier discussion was concluded. I will stick to the thing I know until the time that I dont need to. After all the confusion I realized that my eccentricity pays a bitter price. Your right about that you guys are always one step ahead of us but not all of us will be the kind of you...Truely a Master in all way. My sincerest respect.

a little bit confused here... did you wave the white flag as with regards to the topic? and to quote "After all the confusion I realized that my eccentricity pays a bitter price."

@ silvercrown and silvercrown only. I hope you farther read back my earlier comments "3.3gig assign to rendering" after that decide later.....yesterday I was busy doing my own test. at normal(3files different file test) 32 and 64 bit doenst makes any difference. but still I want to prove more to myself.....
the only thing that I want to still convince myself is to admit that 64 is better than 32(at 4gig less ram). How can I convince myself to admit that 64 is better than 32 when is always prove that it doenst make sense. As a user of 32bit, I expect more about 64bit advantage and rendering at normal it just still the same but still I want to prove more (for example I want to set timer to see which one renders faster). We must talk accuracy of data here, anyways.....

I just site 3 advantages of 32 bit.

1. smooth viewing at viewport...irregardless of not rendering still have advantage get the point here...64 not smooth 32 smooth simple logic.
2. rendering at million poly....computer doents know accident its always a fact. its not human its just logic when it can it always can. walang term na sometime it happens sometimes not sa computer.
3. sorry about this, so tired of explaining kase.....at 64 bit rendering you have to exit all the programe when rendering..question is why???? isnt 64 bit so powerful enough to multi task...

(same as my situation) means I choose 32 bit because in some cases rendering at 64 bit blocks my ability to multi-task...only proof that the ability of 64bit is under question again right?.

that is not all.... this time I need accuracy not only say and say, needs proof right?

others, I am really bad at argument sometimes (remember I said let us help each other) i mean also not to argue to each other. I must admit maybe my ego reach high and sometimes I can't control and I dont want that to happen, It just so not nice....

Still I am sitting at 32 bit here until further notice..... cheers my friend and chill I said I will admit it until my 32 bit fails the test of his Master. This is for my own benefit.

my message to sir cloud belongs to him only, its full of meaning, dont get confuse I expect much from you my virtual friend.

baka dito may confusion.... 64 bit max is better than 32bit max when rendering at more than 4 gig required ram from rendering because 32bit max has the disadvantage not to access the extra Ram or more Ram it is deem required (this is where you need to decide logically) shift to 64bit max emmidiately (that is why I have 64bit max also installed on the company's office computer).

please give me your personal thoughts about these my ears all open from you only.

@ sir Gailatest07 - regarding sa no.1 about smooth viewing at viewport,,,,hindi b ang video card ang main factor for this?,,or mali ang akala ko,,

@whey09-please dont get confuse...irregardsless pa rin ng video card...rangalua says same computer using same video card. tama o mali?

last na po ito kay silvercrown po and comment ko hindi po for all. tapos na po ang topic.

try to configure 3ds max in preference settings

i got confused nga,

@ galaites07, pm your personal messages.

I am answering sir galaites07 based on what i encountered.

I just site 3 advantages of 32 bit.

1. smooth viewing at viewport...irregardless of not rendering still have advantage get the point here...64 not smooth 32 smooth simple logic.

-I am using a 64bit system, and nothing seems to be wrong with my viewport viewing, still it is smooth even if i am only using a 256mb ram model.

2. rendering at million poly....computer doents know accident its always a fact. its not human its just logic when it can it always can. walang term na sometime it happens sometimes not sa computer.

- I think case to case basis ito....I know of someone who when making his scenes, can't render it on a core2dou, and it's only a one storey building, whereas when i create a scene, i can always make it render, we once made a scene, me a two storey and his was only a one storey, but he could not make it render, yet my scene rendered fine. We are talking of 32 bit sytem with this area.

3. sorry about this, so tired of explaining kase.....at 64 bit rendering you have to exit all the programe when rendering..question is why???? isnt 64 bit so powerful enough to multi task...

I can actually surf the net, open CAD, and even use yahoo messenger while I am rendering stuff on my 64bit system quad core cpu. And I only have 4gigs of RAM at that.

(same as my situation) means I choose 32 bit because in some cases rendering at 64 bit blocks my ability to multi-task...only proof that the ability of 64bit is under question again right?.

I repeat, I can MULTI-TASK on my 64 bit system, maybe something is wrong with how your system was configured, though i can't be able to conclude that.

Galaites07 wrote:3. sorry about this, so tired of explaining kase.....at 64 bit rendering you have to exit all the programe when rendering..question is why???? isnt 64 bit so powerful enough to multi task...

Based sa test mo bro and thank you for that:

Therefore I can conclude:
1. that some 64bit 3dmax are not fully working and are experiencing errors during performances.
2. that some 64bit 3dmax has to be calibrated to perform well.
3. that some 64bit 3dmax does not suffice the theory that higher versions (64bit vs 32bit) are always better than lower versions.

I think hindi na kailangan idiscuss further ito (particularly ang case ni galaites07) since walang consensus tayong makukukuha. Kahit ako man din ay surrender na sa idea na hindi talaga magpapatalo ang 32bit nya. But then again, you could be using a wrong version or maybe something is wrong with the version you are using and we can't blame you for that. But thanks for the time sa pag explain in details.

We need more opinions on this and insight siguro based on your personal experiences. I haven't tried this one yet kasi parang di daw compatible ang board ko sa 64bit. I have to resolve that first bago ako maging 64bit. Kaya I want to know more. Thanks guys.

to further add to the confusion:

I have been on 64 bits xp and windows 7 with both 2009 and 2010 running as expected. No lags, no problems whatsoever.

For viewport problems, its more or less your graphic drivers.

Of course, 64 bits can chug more polys than 64 bits. It is more noticable when rendering. You'll have memory problems with 32 bits because it won't spit more memory more than 3 gigs when you have a scene wanting more than that.

Nevertheless, it's really rather difficult to gauge hardware setups because not everyone works in the same environment.

Not pointing fingers to anyone..I just want to share my experience since I have also handled very big animation scenes. I want to add to the confusion as well.

same here...I choose 64 bit simply because of its shear ability to render scenes that a 32 bit OS can dream of. Ever since i moved into 64bit OS, i never went back to 32bit. Even my OS at home is windows 7 ultimate 64bit.

I have been working on big scenes. i did a project about 25 million polygons(vrayproxy are not yet included on the counting) and it is using more than 12 gig of ram...we had a 8 core system with 16 gig ram...

My 3d max is rendering, i have either photoshop or after effects open coz i need to do color corrections at the same time.

I used work on a hectic office and i could not just let my system render while i am sitting around watching the sun go down. I even have another max open modelling while my system is doing renderings. The heaviest was the YAS MARINA RACE TRACK in Abu Dhabi. It was all 3d and animated, including the people on the bleachers.

If anyone doubts my claims, you can ask Ryan_coy and princessjay. I guess many of you know these guys and know their works. We worked together on the same office before..they will happily tell you how normal it is to punish our system. Sometimes at weekends, we have our backburners rendering an animation sequence while we have another 3d max on our machines rendering a static image at the same time...32 bit can never do that...

1 million poly is no fuss...5 million poly is still no fuss for a 32 bit system with 3 gig ram...if you want to see how different it is...test your scenes going above 10 - 20 million polygons and rendering it at large resolutions, lets say 3000 resolution above? ...the difference well really show..

Still not convinced? Try checking Marek Denko's work http://marekdenko.net/?page_id=72

His scene was over "1.5 billion polygon" and used up only 10 gig of ram out of his 16 gig system...can you imagine that on a 32bit OS?


I hope people are aware that:

1. Moving to 64 bit system does not speed up render time of your scenes
2. Even if you are able to put 24 gig of ram, it does not speed up your rendering of your scene.

Many people get confused and think that if they upgrade their RAM, render time will be faster or if they upgrade their Video card, it will render the scene faster.

What they dont under stand is that 64 bit OS and programs gives your system the proper ability to be able to utilize more RAM power, thus it gives you the ability to handle more heavier scenes...

Ofcourse 3D max 64bit will utilize the 64bit feature of the 64 bit OS. 3d max 32bit on a 64bit OS is a waste because the extra RAM would not be utilized, not even detected. Ofcourse you need a 64bit OS for the 3dmax 64bit to work.

I find it strange that people are getting heated up over the 64 bit and 32 bit OS. 64 bit OS or programs are created to make your system capable of handling more than 3 gig memory, it does not make your system faster. Its your hardware that does that job.

** GPU will handle your viewport and sooner, multiple GPU will help with Realtime rendering once the feature is fully supported in Max/Maya

** RAM help remember more data for the processor to process.

** Your processor is responsible for the processing power and multitasking ability of your CPU. Thus the term Multi-threaded CPU

**Combine that with RAID setups, and other hardware, then you have a monster rig that has lesser bottleneck on the data transfer fast lane..that is just on part of your setup. The next is the software. If your software get proper Installation, updates, proper hotfix for bugs like memory leaks and stuff..

There are lots of culprits why some can multitask, some could not even if they have strong systems.

Here is why:

1. Too many background programs running...taskbar program, spyware, malwares, anti virus programs...etc
2. Bad installation of OS or programs, poor installation of updates or hotfixes
3. Faulty hardware
4. Computer rig Setup
5. how large your scenes are
6. etc...

@Galaites07 Im sure you have your reasons on why you doubt the 64bit system. Like you said, you made test and you are still not convinced. I do not blame you for doubting. Since you were asking opinions, then I hope you are open minded over what I said above.

You will only come to realize it when the time comes that you will work with a company that requires you to make heavy scenes and animation complete with moving characters, moving cars, 3d trees, animated cloth.....over 30 shot clips for a 7 minute full animation and your team has to complete the sequence in just 1-2 months...this experience will convince you entirely. Because interms of multitasking, this type of environments are nightmares...you have to model your scenes from top to bottom(im not talking about a single house)...do test renders and remodelling at the same time...render your animation and color correct it at the same time..do double renders because 2 different clients needs different images at the same day... loading everything on one single scene because there is just no more time to render separate passes because you crazy boss told the client that he can have his animation tomorrow. The 64bit OS will be your bestfriend and you will never see things the same way again.

I know you will ask me to show you some things..not all words...I have shown you Marek Denko's works of 1.5 million Polygon.

I am not as good as him, but here are links to my works, my teams work that went over the capabilities of the 32 bit OS






I can give you links to my old office project, the Race project. I could not post the link here. Company policy.

Like what Vertex mentioned

"it's really rather difficult to gauge hardware setups because not everyone works in the same environment."

Here is a sample I prepared for you guys



The scene is rendering The Lonely Town file

- It has about 6,939,084 million polygon excluding the vrayproxy
- It is rendering at 3000 x 1688
- Lightcahe alone is using up 9658.5 RAM or 9.6 gig of RAM
- My task manager peaked at 9.64 gig

At the same time of the rendering I was

- I have my project file in after effects open because I was working on it while i was reading the thread, deadline is today.
- I have my Yahoo messenger open
- I was uploading in mozilla FireFTP a 574 MB file for my boss @ 108 kb/s
- you can clearly see several tabs open including CGPINOY
- I also have a few explorer open


Again, with the same things im doing above I opened my latest 3d max file.



this is the result of the render. i could not post the High resolution of the product because of company policy. This size is ok.



It is a restaurant, bar, lobby and shopping hall scene...It is for an animation with plenty of close ups, and a full flythrough. I can only show you this portion of the scene. this is only the restaurant area..ahead is the bar..connecting to it is the lobby, crossing the lobby would be the shopping area...the camera will fly from here up to the shopping area...everything is 3d, no 2d planes, no cuts, no hiding of objects during the flythrough. And aside from that, we will have several close up animation shots on each area.

Details of the scene is:

- 27,600,381 polygons or 27.6 million polygons
- Lightcache render time is only 4 mins
- its utilizing 7650.7 or 7.6 gig of RAM
- 4000 x 2250 resolution

Again, bellow you can see i have several programs open including after effects and Photoshop and also Yahoo messenger.

I did notneed to close the other things just to render. and yes, I was working on my color correction on the animation sequence i have in after effects while i was rendering

My system is

Core i7 940
Radeon 5870
12 gig ram
windows 7 ultimate 64 bit

PS. I also forgot to mention that i have utorrent running at the background

also to Galaites07 You said on one of your post na you are challenging anyone..Kase tatapatan yun render gamit ung 32bit max. I can take the stand if you insist. Aside from the works you see above, I am willing to show you more animations that I have done or got involved at that could only be done on a 64bit Max and OS...considering the time to meet the deadline, Length of the animation, complexity of the scene. I already made the first move above. I posted an animation of my demo reel and my Lonely Town Project, i want to see ano ang I-tatapat mo. It would be nice for me to send you the files but that is my own sweat and work. Tapatin mo rin 6 million poly or better yet, yung 27 million polygon project ko,for animation and quality more or less on par. Because quality sa lighting and material plays a part sa memory usage din. No need to rush to prepare the scene...you can take your time.

I am not trying to insult you or hurt your feelings, please do remember that you claimed much of these things...including challenging fellow CGPinoy to post a scene and I-tatapat mo with a 32bit Max..I would even dare you to post your claims on 64bit Max and your challenge on International forums like Evermotion or CGsociety...surely they will be more informative and direct. You will clearly see enlightenment there.

I will be going to Cebu today, so I will not be online very often until June 12 when i get back...

thanks Tams!

I guess sir viTAMINs just did a thorough explanation regarding this subject. FTW!!!

@bokkins : no prob bossing...

@arkiedmund : I guess I have been very quiet in CGP for a looooong time....stressed with deadlines of the project...trying to keep render time of animation at 30 mins max for all the areas of the scene with 27 million polygon with the shopping area na wala pa 3d objects and staying with the quality of the output. Yan, bumigay tuloy...heheh

@viTAMINs: Yes, you have been very quiet for a very long time. Much as I want to sometimes drop you a line, and ask some questions, i'd rather not, since we know that you are very busy.

BTT:

Yes, the 64bit is indeed a best friend once you get to experience it's real potential. I think we have a very clear idea now with regards to the pros and cons of these operating system types. This has indeed been a very good read.

@arkiedmund : ok lng naman...pwede ka naman mag PM sa akin anytime kung may mga inquiries ka...I would glady try to help...Lagi ako dumadaan sa CGP. I can not keep up lng sa posting sa mga 3d works kc halos may bago everyday....but important topics such as this, nakikisali ako...kahint nga yug About women ni kurdaps, napasali tuloy ako...hehehe...PM ka lng kung may mga gusto ka tanungin or pa-comment

@ master galaites: i see master arkied, the vertex, and master tamins argue strongly to your claims you specially addressed to me (silvercrown) and to me only...
If you will just follow the direction of this discussion, considering the testimonials of true masters (vertex, tamin & others) there's no room for you to argue really... i'm glad that they've taken up the cudgels for the benefit of other members...
master tamin's response would be the epic conclusion/summary of your hypothesis...

I won't dwell on other points you've made because the masters has explained extensively...
Although i would like to highlight some points you made:

1st:
galaites -"the only thing that I want to still convince myself is to admit that 64 is better than 32(at 4gig less ram)"
2nd:
galaites - "64 bit max is better than 32bit max when rendering at more than 4 gig required ram from rendering because 32bit max has the disadvantage not to access the extra Ram or more Ram it is deem required"

2 contradicting statements, 2 different setups, by logic and in chronological order the 1st precedes the 2nd... They don't belong to the same era....
The 1st statement is true and correct 2 years ago... and it maybe true for another year... and it may continue to be true if the master of these setup "refuse" to learn, ceased to learn new things and stopped pushing his works to the present demands and standards...

2nd statement is true as to last year, and maybe the present time... 64 bit OS, 64 bit 3ds max, 4 gig ram's maybe the norm, and a lot better than the 1st setup BUT, BUT with the advent of more demanding, higher quality outputs and the production of more powerful machines this soon will become obsolete... and the 1st setup will be "extinct"... wait another year and it will be 'err "jurassic", unless you want to be a dodo or a part of the few endangered specie.... who refused to follow progression...

galaites - "my message to sir cloud belongs to him only, its full of meaning, dont get confuse I expect much from you my virtual friend."
I would agree to master cloud, you are cryptic indeed my friend!

@Master Vitamins .. nice to hear from you again sir ..


I guess dito na nag tatapo ang laban.. thanks for the very very interesting share at views regarding this topic .. hope lahat tayo naka benefits sa mga discussion ng topic na ito.. again we have to embrace the technology otherwise you will be left behind. Cguro naging ganun ang pananaw ng iba it might be na ang system nila hindi fully configured para sa 64bit kaya hindi sila satisfy .... Thanks again Master Vitamins for the very very nice explaination...

@ silvercrown......I would agree to master cloud, you are cryptic indeed my friend! and thats how you separate human from a machine.... Goodluck to your journey to the 3D world.

I hope we all learn a lot from all sides of the story.

ok na to ha. we need information. Hindi ito personal message. thanks to everyone who shared there experiences. I'm excited for my next upgrade already. hanap buhay muna.

Galaites07 wrote:@ silvercrown...... and thats how you separate human from a machine.... Goodluck to your journey to the 3D world.

you're cryptic as ever before my friend... "abstract" i should say... nahilo ako
Goodluck to you as well

Galaites07 wrote:I hope we all learn a lot from all sides of the story.

Cheers on this one

@vITAMINs- Thanks sir for sharing your thoughts. I would like to ask some more detailed questions pero babasahin ko muna maige reply mo dito then ill ask later.hehehe. At least now i know how you guys punished your rigs. Grabe pala. Multi tasking talga.hehehe..Again thanks sir!