How to criticize a work?! (A small discussion)

First topic message reminder :

Hi guys, I've been wanting to open this up dati pa. Gawin natin tong small discussion on how to properly criticize a work by colleagues to guide us into a better understanding of what we are doing.

Aside from the fact that we are super sensitive as artist, lalo na when it comes to our personal works. It is also important that we stress the points of improvement directly and objectively. Wala na sanang pasikot sikot pa o pasaring na tipong double meaning ang dating.

The goal of this thread is to develop a good sense of critic.

Below are some phrases or words that I personally do not like seeing in post: You may also share yours and suggests. Everybody is welcome to contribute.

1. parang may mali... or sa monitor ko lang. (what's the sense kung iba naman pala ang monitor mo di ba?)
2. nagtataka lang ako sa door (ground floor), parang grainy sya, o sa mata ko lang. (avoid na natin yung mga side comments na sa mata ko lang, hindi talaga nakakatulong sa pagimprove yan.)
3...

Ito naman ang mga suggestions ko on how to critic:
1. point out the mistakes
2. suggest solutions on how to improve them
3. explain why if you find anything odd
4. suggest references if you have time
5. go direct to the point
6. be objective
7. avoid unnecessary comments
8. avoid using local dialects for everyone to benefit from the discussions

Sa thread na to, sana maimprove natin ang pagcritic. Yung mga compliments naman, hayaan na muna natin, these are ego boosters which I have observed will help improve a persons mood. a happy mood means good everything.

corpsegrinder wrote:

Valiant wrote:

well vertex... i respect your opinion... you have to respect mine.

if you will give me that analogy of a boogie... it will still depends on how the other person told me... if he said it with a loud voice... still mapapahiya ako di ba? so you can't compare it to a forums like this... wherein everyone can see the post of other person pointing out a certain person's mistake... kaya sinabi ko na mas mabuting merong solution...

Ang ibig nyo bang sabihin hndi nirespeto ni vertex ang opinyon nyo???

Its like everytime you respond to vertex opinion, ngmumukhang mahina ang iyong pick-up...

Corpse, we really can't please everyone. So the solution is not to please them at all. Let's focus our energies into something more productive....I'm going to pick my nose!

OT: yup, your need more hair to filter the pollution. sa makati ka pa naman nakatira. haha. don't worry. machismo factor naman yan.

Sana madaming napulot na aral ang lahat dito sa small discussion na to. It's main goal really is to impart to everyone what should be the best attitude towards a critique or a simple comment.

Yes the norm is what we have right now(one word comment like wow, nice, posmore, etc), Yes, these are lame responses, but we will overcome that by taking the action into the next level. Sana nakatulong ang discussion na to sa pag level up natin. We want to see the change, make it happen. If we don't start it within ourselves, who will? Act now, Isabay natin sa pagbago ng bansa even before the elections.

Mabuhay tayong lahat.

v_wrangler wrote:

if you will give me that analogy of a boogie... it will still depends on how the other person told me... if he said it with a loud voice... still mapapahiya ako di ba? so you can't compare it to a forums like this... wherein everyone can see the post of other person pointing out a certain person's mistake... kaya sinabi ko na mas mabuting merong solution...

Valiant, I think I was lost in translation. My gist actually is to never wait until someone tells you, loud or not. Its still ya boogie.

That's what we call self-quality control. But not everyone can do such a thing, maybe because his standards were low. Or that's all he know. So thank thy critic, for without them, loud or not, the boogies will make your brethren melt with embarassment. And you lose one pogi point from your girlfriends.

As for respect of opinion, I'll do if you're on the bright side. As long as you can argue the points and you're able to convince me. Make me run out of words.

Seriously now, I respect thy opinion but the whole point is - If you get number one advice and you were told what's wrong with your particular work, be thankful. You'll never get such an advice for free other than this forum.

@celes, naalala ko ang sabi ni misis sa akin nong binata pa lang ako, "hoy may tutsang ka!" Sabi ko naman, di naman nakikita eh! Sagot sa akin, wag mo nang hintayin pang dumungaw at may magsabi pa sa yo. From that time onwards, I learned to trim them even before somebody notices. Forgive the analogy, I was looking at the mirror this morning and wondered how come nasal hair grow fast in the Philippines... must be the air...

vertex... i guess nagkaroon ng simpleng hindi pagkakaunawaan lang sa post ko... of course i will be thankful but still i will prefer kung merong suggestion man lang... even not a direct method. in the first place if i knew what to do would you think i will make the mistake the critic pointed out? pardon me but advice is different from a critic imho. advise comes after a critic.

hello Valiant, I think the heat comes up from the EXPECTATIONS. So if it isn't part of the solution then its the problem. I wouldnt wait a second to diss em.

What I'm going at (And I'm running out of analogies) is if somebody points out a problem, and you were eventually convinced that the guys got some points, it doesn't take so much effort to find out the solution yourself. There's very little chance in this forum that you'd get an cryptic but sensible commentary that you'll never ever know how to fix it. You'll notice that most of the advices are either you take this A or not. Its Actually easy.

The heat of emotions comes because we uncosnciously demand the person to justify, or show what he knows since he is attacking our hidden egos. Proof of expertise etc etc. If we start thinking that this useless demanding emotions has no place in our hearts - you will be surprised to see that it opens up new avenues for solution building.

Solution building is the core of what makes a cg artist better than the others. Its called technique. How fast one is able to mix approaches to come up with a solution.

I believe it is the integral part of training, one must be in a position to acknowledge a problem. One must be in a predicament. One must be in a situation to be forced to think. Make a choice from the hundereds if not thousands of solutions. Then implement based on merit, speed and further editability.

Well, thats my brand of training. Have you ever wondered how we dealt with cg limits back in the 90's when we didnt have fast computers and the internet?

Its all out of necessity. And necessity is the root of all cg heaven.

I feel like I'm drifting - I'm sure someday you'll see the same light.

Goodluck.

I'm going back to my orignal post, I'd critic this way, follow if you like, it's A-OK if you dont:

1. Point out the mistakes (the good ones are a given, I don't usually give praises because works that illicit praise should be the norm if we need to raise our standards) + your own persona (if you can be a bitch and still drive your point, good for you)

2. Offer advice, technical or otherwise on how to fix the mistakes.

* If you are a techy or max-savvy or maya-sosi, give them pointers on what workflow might be appropriate.

* If you aren't well-versed with the application in question, pointing out the mistakes is still valid (of course you need to make sense)

* If you are the ones receiving the crits, have an open mind, don't expect a direct offer of a solution. Being shown a (possible) problem area is something to cheer about. You didn't notice them in the first place, di ba?

* Love your critic, they won't spend their time if they do not care about you and your work

* Return the favor, Critic back to practice and notice your standards getting higher.

Goodnight.

*

vertex... that was a great explanation and i admire the effort you put by merely typing those letters. i believed every post here undergoes the self quality control needed but like what you've said... maybe un lang talaga ung kaya... i for one have a very high regard on the site and all the people na bumubuo ng cgp kaya every post na i-share ko i see to it na un ung best ko. na naiintindihan ko naman na my best will not be good enough sa iba... ang sa akin lang... iba pa rin kasi ung comment na merong kasamang tips man lang... the solution, tip or suggestion maybe very simple or dumb sa taong nagbigay ng crits pero baka sobrang importante at makakatulong naman sa taong binigyan nya ng comment...

Nice one Valiant - I'm glad we're slowly getting on the same page. Rest assured that if you ask me for advice and I find a problem, you'll get tips on how you could fix it (as long as I know the answer).

The only reason why I suggest losing the expectations; it's because not everyone can offer a solution. Well, some can pinpoint a glitch but can't figure out how to fix them - their efforts should still be valued so they do not go to waste. That's all.

Of course, for all criticisms to combo with a detailed solution is for all of us to be well-versed first with our applications of choice. We can only learn that thru practice and by joining in the conversations at the forums.

Goodluck!

v_wrangler wrote:The only reason why I suggest losing the expectations; it's because not everyone can offer a solution. Well, some can pinpoint a glitch but can't figure out how to fix them - their efforts should still be valued so they do not go to waste. That's all.Goodluck!

allow me to highlight this vertex for i find it very helpful. thanks and see you around

by dude verts - " Love your critic, they won't spend their time if they do not care about you and your work "

Can't help but smile after reading this dude verts.

-My number one critique is my wife...
She's been giving me crits ever since I started joining competitions here in CGP and other sites, so I believe that people who are actually not in our circle have the best position to crit our works. But this is a different topic, I just wanna mention it.

I've been reading this thread for I've been blessed by all your responses and blown away by how this topic turned out...

Ang napapansin ko lang talaga sa tin, mas malakas ang reply natin sa mga magagandang post, at lahat halos ng reply ay astig!, lupet master!, grabe na to!...and so on.......although wala naman akong problema dun....(guilty rin ako eh.) pero sana mas bigyan natin ng panahon ung mga post na alam nating marami pang kailangang improvement.....sila halos ung hindi napapansin eh sila pa naman ung mas nangangailangan ng tulong....What I'm saying is let's give praises but let's not forget those who need help....

On how to criticize a work, maging honest lang tayo at maging precise siguro. Don't look at the poster(TS) but look at the work.

At tanggapin kung anuman ang crit sa gawa mo. tulad nga ng nasabi ni dude verts, ung pag comment palang sayo matuwa ka na bonus nalang ung suggestion kung meron. Iba pa rin kase kung ibang tao ang titingin sa gawa mo eh. kung minsan ang alam natin napaka ganda na ng work natin, pero magugulat ka na di pa pala once na maipakita mo to sa ibang tao...

thanks to all the masters and "matatanda" who take time to reply on this thread, very helpful sa lahat ung mga nababahagi nyo....

celes wrote:

v_wrangler wrote:
I'll point out you've got a boogie peeping out your nostrils. I don't have to tell you to pick it, pull them out or push them in, neither do I have to pick it for you. You got to do it on your own fast as you could para lalo kang di kahiya-hiya. Same analogy, some people will notice but never say anything to protect you daw from kahihiyan. Well, here's what I say - the longer you've got the boogies in there - mas lalo kayong kahiya hiya!

So thank the person who called thy attention. Simple eh?

OT: so parang

TITLE of THREAD: Cave Boogie (Practice Mode, with HDRI)

commentator 1: me nakadungaw na boogie sa left kweba niyo po master, IMO lang.

TS: salamat sa pagpuna sir, any tips or suggestions para matanggal?

commentator 1: well maraming ways. pwede ka gumamit ng nipper version 2008 kaso ang drawback niyan baka me masali na buhok sa ilong. i think the best solution is to simply pick it with your right hand finger, pwede rin left kung left handed ka. dont forget na wag ipahid yan sa kung saan saan though. looking forward to your next boogie. keep it up!

commentator 2: nasabi na nila ang comments sir, pero para sa kin sir aprub tong boogie niyo, lufet!

sumakit tuloy tyan ko sa katatawa , pati sample cave bogie ha ha ha ha ha ha! version 2008 pa na nipper nyhahahahahahaha!

tuloy lng mga tol!

pwede makisali...
pansin ko lang simula ng baguhan pa ako... most nagbibigayan ng comments eh magkakaibigan... na open din lang naman ito...tama sabi ni torvics.. di napapansin yung mga baguhan... alam ng baguhan kung sino sino ito...na puro sila sila lang nag nagcocoment sa isat isa... pano mapipigilan kung mismo ang magkakabigan ang nagpapasahan ng comments.. kaya natatabunan ang mga baguhan...
isa pa pansin ko lang sa front page ano ba rules para maging front page? tanong din siguro ito ng mga baguhan... siguro dapat pagusapan din ang topic na ito... sana lang walang kaibi kaibigan...

cgil wrote:pwede makisali...
pansin ko lang simula ng baguhan pa ako... most nagbibigayan ng comments eh magkakaibigan... na open din lang naman ito...tama sabi ni torvics.. di napapansin yung mga baguhan... alam ng baguhan kung sino sino ito...na puro sila sila lang nag nagcocoment sa isat isa... pano mapipigilan kung mismo ang magkakabigan ang nagpapasahan ng comments.. kaya natatabunan ang mga baguhan...
isa pa pansin ko lang sa front page ano ba rules para maging front page? tanong din siguro ito ng mga baguhan... siguro dapat pagusapan din ang topic na ito... sana lang walang kaibi kaibigan...

wala naman problem kung magkaibigan ang nagbibigayan ng comments. ang alam ko halos lahat dito na naging magkaibigan sa forum at dahil sa forum. kahit ako, cguro 3 lang talaga ang kakilala ko na ininvite ko pa. halos lahat dito, dito ko na nakilala, pati mga mods, some of them di ko pa nameet personally, si vertex, lately ko lang din nameet after mga 5 years na siguro interaction namin. but i like your observation bro. kasi naisip mo na madaming palang mgkakaibigan in groups.

about sa front page naman, yung tingin ko lang na maganda ang pinopost ko, as a token of our appreciation sa contribution nila sa cgp at sa industry. Also, in the hope na makainspire pa sila sa mga baguhan sa industry at maging role model. personal choices ko ang mga nandun. di ko na ginawang voting kasi ang gulo pa at madami pang dadaanan. that way, magagawa ko anytime. usually dapat weekly ang update ko dyan, kaya lang nadedelay minsan.

Also, madaming beses ko na din gusto ilagay ang work mo sa frontpage, kaso di mo pa din naooptimize kahit sinabihan na kita minsan. hindi ko kasi naloload everytime naghahanap ako ng mga works na ipopost sa frontpage.

sir bokkins eh paano na nga yung mga baguhan na naghahantay ng comments...? kung iiral ang ganito? sa frontpage sir... mas okey siguro kuy my rules... yung sa tingin natin binigyan ng malaking effort... para lang s ikakaganda pa ng CGpinoy.... para lalo pa mainspire ang baguhan....

Personally, & you may browse for my posts, I go out of my way to visit the beginners who post works & give pointers there. Hindi na ako nag cocomment sa mga magagaling na; magaling na yan eh.. Maliban na lang kung blown away lang talaga ako... I don't recall ever having commented on master Cgil's threads; maybe once or twice?

Frontpage? Importante ba na mailagay ka sa frontpage? You know what youre creations worth is. Para sa kin as long as naka contribute ako sa site kahit na never akong mailagay sa frontpage okay lang. Pang masahe na lang ng ego yan eh.
Like some "rock & roll" comments...

@cgil - comments and critics is voluntarily na ginagawa. you cannot obliged everybody else to give comments. sa front page naman, lahat naman puede ma lagay doon ang works basta ang post nya eh may quality - yun na ang rules doon.

at sa mga kokonti ang nagcomments - siguro nagkataon lang na iyong ibang posts eh di napagtuunan ng pansin ng mga members/viewers... still critics and comments are given voluntarily.

isa pa sir bokkins marami magtatanong bakit di frontpage bakit iyon frontpage.. siguro nakuha nyo gusto ko sabihin... mas okey parin kung my voting para iwas mas malaking problema sa CGPINOY...
dapat pagusapan ito hangat maaga... ano sa tingin ng mga Masters...? its time na siguro para pagusapan ito....

bakit ba pinoproblema mo Front page sir cgil? marami ba nagtatanong? then lets their voice be heard in this thread.

sa next thread na lang po mga sir pagusapan ito.

BTT peace.

sensya ng mga master... kahit s evermotion malaking bagay ito para lalo ka mainspire....

cgil wrote:isa pa sir bokkins marami magtatanong bakit di frontpage bakit iyon frontpage..

Bakit ba naman ganun kayo mag-isip o kung sino man yung nagtatanong na yan. Why can't you be happy for others. Ako ang pumili nyan kasi natutuwa ako at proud ako na ipakita sa iba na magagaling itong mga nasa frontpage at mga CG Pinoy sila. It's meant to inspire others and not to draw jealousy and self-pity dahil hindi nailagay sa frontpage. The process of posting frontpage image itself will take me the whole night to do already, pag may voting pa yan, malamang ilang araw pa yan.

Again, it's not that important. Not even close to our goal of helping. It's another extra that we want to give to everyone who deserves it.

I believed na magaganda yang mga napili ko dyan sa frontpage natin. Mapapansin mo din na madaming mga napapafrontpage all the time. Dahil din yan sa I like the quality of their work and how they maintain that quality all the time. Yung iba naman, outstanding ang concept nila, yung iba naman, ang galing ng process. very helpful. Kaya hindi din basta basta lang ang nailalagay dyan.

But of course, still to be improved pa din yan. siguro someday, pwede natin pagaralan pa yan. thanks sa suggestion.

Back to topic na.

Why not be thankful kasi anjan ang CGP and not to expect and ask for something else..... tsk tsk tsk.....

sensya na sir bokkins.....
sir cloud20 i got your point...... ayoko ko na din pahabain pa...
back to topic...

Good that all is well again..let's stick on topic guys...

cheers...

Hi Sir cgil..
Let me say something about frontpages..Honestly we the mods dont have any control about frontpages and nilinaw naman ni sir Boks yun.Its his personal choice which is cool.Imagine mo na lng bro,si sir boks lng lahat ng nag eedit nyan.Editing takes time as well..I noticed you posted some of your works lately and maybe youre expecting something na malalagay some of them.Remember bro na madami pang mga works posted before you posted yours,antay antay ka lng,sabi nga ni sir boks medyo na dedelay lng minsan cause of his busy sched. Try to bare with the admin as well. I know you put a lot of effort sa gawa mo and it shows naman.
Ngayon,if ever na hindi malagay sa frontpage, is it really a big deal? Isnt it the knowledge na natutunan mo during the exercise was the most important?Wag po nating paikutin mundo natin sa mga frontpages na yan.
Those are just extra acknowledgement. The interactions with fellow cgpians are the best part above all. The knowledge you can share with us and we can share with you. Hope ok na bro.Just keep posting and see you around..

ARCHITHEKTHURA wrote:Hi Sir cgil..
Let me say something about frontpages..Honestly we the mods dont have any control about frontpages and nilinaw naman ni sir Boks yun.Its his personal choice which is cool.Imagine mo na lng bro,si sir boks lng lahat ng nag eedit nyan.Editing takes time as well..I noticed you posted some of your works lately and maybe youre expecting something na malalagay some of them.Remember bro na madami pang mga works posted before you posted yours,antay antay ka lng,sabi nga ni sir boks medyo na dedelay lng minsan cause of his busy sched. Try to bare with the admin as well. I know you put a lot of effort sa gawa mo and it shows naman.
Ngayon,if ever na hindi malagay sa frontpage, is it really a big deal? Isnt it the knowledge na natutunan mo during the exercise was the most important?Wag po nating paikutin mundo natin sa mga frontpages na yan.
Those are just extra acknowledgement. The interactions with fellow cgpians are the best part above all. The knowledge you can share with us and we can share with you. Hope ok na bro.Just keep posting and see you around..

oo nga nahihiya nga ako kay bokkins... back to topic na...

Medyo nahuli na ata yung pasok nung message ko bro. Ngayon ko lng nabasa yung mga na reply.kanina ko pa kse tinatype to ngayon ko lng na send..hehehe..

Anyway Back to topic na..