How to criticize a work?! (A small discussion)

First topic message reminder :

Hi guys, I've been wanting to open this up dati pa. Gawin natin tong small discussion on how to properly criticize a work by colleagues to guide us into a better understanding of what we are doing.

Aside from the fact that we are super sensitive as artist, lalo na when it comes to our personal works. It is also important that we stress the points of improvement directly and objectively. Wala na sanang pasikot sikot pa o pasaring na tipong double meaning ang dating.

The goal of this thread is to develop a good sense of critic.

Below are some phrases or words that I personally do not like seeing in post: You may also share yours and suggests. Everybody is welcome to contribute.

1. parang may mali... or sa monitor ko lang. (what's the sense kung iba naman pala ang monitor mo di ba?)
2. nagtataka lang ako sa door (ground floor), parang grainy sya, o sa mata ko lang. (avoid na natin yung mga side comments na sa mata ko lang, hindi talaga nakakatulong sa pagimprove yan.)
3...

Ito naman ang mga suggestions ko on how to critic:
1. point out the mistakes
2. suggest solutions on how to improve them
3. explain why if you find anything odd
4. suggest references if you have time
5. go direct to the point
6. be objective
7. avoid unnecessary comments
8. avoid using local dialects for everyone to benefit from the discussions

Sa thread na to, sana maimprove natin ang pagcritic. Yung mga compliments naman, hayaan na muna natin, these are ego boosters which I have observed will help improve a persons mood. a happy mood means good everything.

Dont worry guys di na mangyayari yang mga pacute na mga titles..We,the Mods and the admins agreed to edit the titles if its necessary.So no more jejemons and pacute titles...

Valiant wrote:@vertex
nice... it's clear now. thanks a lot for the time. and yup very good listener ako sir vertex.
last na lang... hindi ba't logical na sabihin na basta may sinulat na "cnc ay welcome" ibig sabihin very eager at interested ung TS na matuto?

Its suppose to be!But unfortunately hindi lahat eager matuto..Theyre just saying it for the sake of routine but im not really sure if they really mean it. Napapansin ko meron mga iba dyan lalagay na CNC ay welcome pero sila pa yung nagagalit pag di pagpuri yung mga reply.Sad but true,...

Valiant wrote:@vertex
nice... it's clear now. thanks a lot for the time. and yup very good listener ako sir vertex.
last na lang... hindi ba't logical na sabihin na basta may sinulat na "cnc ay welcome" ibig sabihin very eager at interested ung TS na matuto?

That's supposed to be the idea, na pag nag post ka - you are willing to be subjected to the good and the bad crits. Constructive or the not-so-constructive. But in my years of being the resident loverboy here, there are still people who post and demand and act like you owe them.

Dyan ako natatawa pag binigyan mo ng isang advice tapos mangangatwiran ng kung ano ano. Kung prof ako at estudyante ko yan - bigyan ko agad ng singko. Hindi dahil sa panganagtwiran - kundi alam na pala na nya ang sagot eh bakit di pa inayos bago ipost...

Nevertheless, its ncie to be back here after a few months of absence.

ARCHITHEKTHURA wrote:Its suppose to be!But unfortunately hindi lahat eager matuto..Theyre just saying it for the sake of routine but im not really sure if they really mean it. Napapansin ko meron mga iba dyan lalagay na CNC ay welcome pero sila pa yung nagagalit pag di pagpuri yung mga reply.Sad but true,...

well... nakakalungkot kung ganun. kasi napakaraming gustong matuto at magkaroon ng mga valuable comment (sympre mas maganda kung merong suggested din na solution) pero hindi nakakareceive... sinasayang nila ung sinasabi ni vertex na privilege.

v_wrangler wrote:Nevertheless, its ncie to be back here after a few months of absence.

OT: akala ko sir kakandidato ka kaya ka nawala ng matagal dito sa site at nagtagal sa pinas

Valiant wrote:

ARCHITHEKTHURA wrote:Its suppose to be!But unfortunately hindi lahat eager matuto..Theyre just saying it for the sake of routine but im not really sure if they really mean it. Napapansin ko meron mga iba dyan lalagay na CNC ay welcome pero sila pa yung nagagalit pag di pagpuri yung mga reply.Sad but true,...

well... nakakalungkot kung ganun. kasi napakaraming gustong matuto at magkaroon ng mga valuable comment (sympre mas maganda kung merong suggested din na solution) pero hindi nakakareceive... sinasayang nila ung sinasabi ni vertex na privilege.

Yup..And sayang din yung opportunity to learn in easy ways..Maswerte na talaga tayo ngayon,our generation.Sila noon,todo research and wala pang internet kaya kinapa kapa talga nila ng mano mano yang mga software na yan.Malaki nga lng din ang advantage nun kse they know a lot of things that our generations dont..If we can do it in 10 ways, maybe they have 100 ways of doing it.Yun yung malaking advantage nila compared to ordinary renderers like us now a days. Thats why im encouraging everyone to take advantage of it..Learn as many as you can in a day..Dont hesitate to ask..PM lng kayo if you dont know a thing im sure sasagot naman yung mga marunong. I knew it cause ive been there and im still doing it and really helped me a lot.

@archkutachtkuhcahtkrh... err Jeff nalang; actually I for one almost always touch on the basics lang eh; composition, knowing where to put what, how shadows fall to make the scene more interesting, that sort of stuff. Foundations lang. If one can't even touch on the basics, what more of these subdivs multipliers global adaptive sampling sub pixel clamp etc etc etc?...
These, the basics, do not need a monster rig or the internet; just your garden variety sentido comun...

Welcome back from your lethargy Roy...

Sir enigs,im not really sure who's you re referring to,but
i got the same experience as well.Yes!It was you...You and some of the guys here as well..
Honestly,yes!It made a big impact to me.Im not ashamed to say i made a silly and stupid mistake,i do,i really do,
and im so sorry for myself and to that person and i was so embarrased to all of you guys.
I got the balls to say those embarassing and bragging words and you guys are there to help me realized
what i did was wrong..So THANK YOU SO MUCH mga sirs!You guys dont know how much I appreciated it.Until now.
Those are the times i realized a lot of things.

- No its not you archithekthura...i was referring to Jeffrey Faranial...he he he...
for what you said bro, you made us even more proud...keep inspiring us!

here's my case naman kaya minsan di na po ako makapagcomment sa galleries.

- Minsan, namasyal ako sa galleries natin, and i went over the first 10-15 post. I was looking at the images but im having a hard time finding the praise given by those who replied. im just reading the same "words" discussed here in this thread. so instead of giving my +\- points re the image and helping out the person with what i can share..i just thought na baka maging contrabida pa ako sa thread na'to. honestly.

- in some threads naman makikita natin na nasabi na lahat ng papuri, kung talaga namang maganda ung image. kaya di na ako nag rereply but when i get the chance to the meet him in person or when we have the chance to chat online. dun ko sinasabi ung crits. ko. or kung anu man ang alam kong maitutulong ko.

- lastly, minsan di ko lang talaga gusto ung image...may papuri pa rin??? alam naman natin talaga kung alin ang maganda at hindi diba? at kung may mga nasabi nang crits at dadagdagan ko pa ung mga nasabi na, mahihirapan syang i absorb lahat. so lets be honest na lang. it will help them a lot.

un lang po ang sa akin...

un nasabi na lahat ng mga master.hehehe salamat mga sir.tama po kau mas nakakatulong sa mga nagpopost kng ang mga crits e puro negative.dumaan din me sa mga comments n ganyan,hehehe nung una nagalit ako sa ngcomment sa post ko nun pro naicip ko din na kaya ko nga pinost un pra MAKITA UNG MALI SA GAWA ko at HINDI PARA PURIHIN. so to all youngsters na tulad ko mgpasalamat tau kng my mga crits n negative sa pinost natin dahil un nman tlga ang dahilan kng bkit ngpopost....para matuto..

un lng po..

salamat cgpinoy

jepoyeah wrote:un nasabi na lahat ng mga master.hehehe salamat mga sir.tama po kau mas nakakatulong sa mga nagpopost kng ang mga crits e puro negative.dumaan din me sa mga comments n ganyan,hehehe nung una nagalit ako sa ngcomment sa post ko nun pro naicip ko din na kaya ko nga pinost un pra MAKITA UNG MALI SA GAWA ko at HINDI PARA PURIHIN. so to all youngsters na tulad ko mgpasalamat tau kng my mga crits n negative sa pinost natin dahil un nman tlga ang dahilan kng bkit ngpopost....para matuto..

un lng po..

salamat cgpinoy

bro pakibasa naman ang rules natin about sa text speak. keyboards na yang hawak mo, hindi na cellphone. Kaya tayo nagkakaron ng mga ganitong discussions ay para maiwasan ang mga mali at bad habits.

i'm sorry too pareng boks. didn't notice i was using some text words too...my bad.. it won't happen again. thanks for the crits

sorry sir boks.di na mauulit

Question lang po, what if wala talagang kakaiba dun sa image na gusto ko ipost, does it mean na wag ko na lang xang ipost? What if, i want to ask something about it, such as unexpected error or other problems?





Face the world's reality I guess....

verbum magnificum wrote:Question lang po, what if wala talagang kakaiba dun sa image na gusto ko ipost, does it mean na wag ko na lang xang ipost? What if, i want to ask something about it, such as unexpected error or other problems?





Face the world's reality I guess....

Post mo pa din. Just take the criticisms very well and learn from it. Wag ka tutulad sa link na binigay ni corpsegrinder tsk tsk.
And be sure na you exerted much effort on your work before posting it.

yaug_03 wrote:

verbum magnificum wrote:Question lang po, what if wala talagang kakaiba dun sa image na gusto ko ipost, does it mean na wag ko na lang xang ipost? What if, i want to ask something about it, such as unexpected error or other problems?





Face the world's reality I guess....

Post mo pa din. Just take the criticisms very well and learn from it. Wag ka tutulad sa link na binigay ni corpsegrinder tsk tsk.
And be sure na you exerted much effort to your work before posting it.

tama, post mo pa din, anyway wala naman sinong makapagpigil sa yo... Hintay ka na lang sa "abuloy" ibibigay ng mga masters.. Kung meron pa rin ngcomment na kissass or kaplastikan, well wala ka rin magagawa dun, kailangan nilang basahin ang discussion dito sa thread na ito.

It is always up to you how to accept the negative and constructive comments. Wala kang talo.

v_wrangler wrote:
i just like to make a correction here lest I be misunderstood again. Not all critic know what they talk about. I know a lot here who look big but sounds like crap...Some just talk like they know everything, yours truly included! What I am digging at - is that you do not need to have a master's degree in visualization to know and express the uncomfort when you see an image that does not "click".

Appreciation for beauty is inherent in us. And we know pangit when we see one. What stops us from saying so, is our tribal culture. We care for our ingroup. Ayaw makasakit ng damdamin which is originally a positive trait if put to good use. So there you go - if we want to help make someone learn, be truthful and show 'em which area sucks bigtime. If you are on the receiving end, listen and pick up the points laid unto you. They may be painful to the ears at first but I'm sure you'll eventually see the wisdom once you refrain from refusing what was supposed to be a gem for the hearts... and your brain as well!

Echo ko lang to

kiss my *ss and i'm gonna lick your b*lls!
haaaay napakadami nyan dito.....

bawasan na yang pa-cute comments, kelangan constructive criticism, punahin yung dapat punahin at magbigay ng pointers.
Advice ko rin sa mga newbie, tingin-tingin muna, browse sa mga magagandang output dito at sa ibang site, eto yung magiging benchmark natin...

silvercrown wrote:

v_wrangler wrote:
i just like to make a correction here lest I be misunderstood again. Not all critic know what they talk about. I know a lot here who look big but sounds like crap...Some just talk like they know everything, yours truly included! What I am digging at - is that you do not need to have a master's degree in visualization to know and express the uncomfort when you see an image that does not "click".

Appreciation for beauty is inherent in us. And we know pangit when we see one. What stops us from saying so, is our tribal culture. We care for our ingroup. Ayaw makasakit ng damdamin which is originally a positive trait if put to good use. So there you go - if we want to help make someone learn, be truthful and show 'em which area sucks bigtime. If you are on the receiving end, listen and pick up the points laid unto you. They may be painful to the ears at first but I'm sure you'll eventually see the wisdom once you refrain from refusing what was supposed to be a gem for the hearts... and your brain as well!

Echo ko lang to

kiss my *ss and i'm gonna lick your b*lls!
haaaay napakadami nyan dito.....

dude, ikaw ang isa ko pang hinihintay na magcontribute dito eh.. wahehehe...

ERICK wrote:

silvercrown wrote:

v_wrangler wrote:
i just like to make a correction here lest I be misunderstood again. Not all critic know what they talk about. I know a lot here who look big but sounds like crap...Some just talk like they know everything, yours truly included! What I am digging at - is that you do not need to have a master's degree in visualization to know and express the uncomfort when you see an image that does not "click".

Appreciation for beauty is inherent in us. And we know pangit when we see one. What stops us from saying so, is our tribal culture. We care for our ingroup. Ayaw makasakit ng damdamin which is originally a positive trait if put to good use. So there you go - if we want to help make someone learn, be truthful and show 'em which area sucks bigtime. If you are on the receiving end, listen and pick up the points laid unto you. They may be painful to the ears at first but I'm sure you'll eventually see the wisdom once you refrain from refusing what was supposed to be a gem for the hearts... and your brain as well!

Echo ko lang to

kiss my *ss and i'm gonna lick your b*lls!
haaaay napakadami nyan dito.....

dude, ikaw ang isa ko pang hinihintay na magcontribute dito eh.. wahehehe...

Kating-kati nga ako kanina dude di nga lang ako makaporma sa dami ng ginagawa hehehe...
Nasabi na lahat ang magagandang points dude... pero alam mo, sa pagkahaba ng narating netong "small discussion" na eto marami pa rin ang magiging bulag, pipi at bingi... at patuloy pa rin yung b*lls licking...

silvercrown wrote:

ERICK wrote:

silvercrown wrote:

v_wrangler wrote:
i just like to make a correction here lest I be misunderstood again. Not all critic know what they talk about. I know a lot here who look big but sounds like crap...Some just talk like they know everything, yours truly included! What I am digging at - is that you do not need to have a master's degree in visualization to know and express the uncomfort when you see an image that does not "click".

Appreciation for beauty is inherent in us. And we know pangit when we see one. What stops us from saying so, is our tribal culture. We care for our ingroup. Ayaw makasakit ng damdamin which is originally a positive trait if put to good use. So there you go - if we want to help make someone learn, be truthful and show 'em which area sucks bigtime. If you are on the receiving end, listen and pick up the points laid unto you. They may be painful to the ears at first but I'm sure you'll eventually see the wisdom once you refrain from refusing what was supposed to be a gem for the hearts... and your brain as well!

Echo ko lang to

kiss my *ss and i'm gonna lick your b*lls!
haaaay napakadami nyan dito.....

dude, ikaw ang isa ko pang hinihintay na magcontribute dito eh.. wahehehe...

Kating-kati nga ako kanina dude di nga lang ako makaporma sa dami ng ginagawa hehehe...
Nasabi na lahat ang magagandang points dude... pero alam mo, sa pagkahaba ng narating netong "small discussion" na eto marami pa rin ang magiging bulag, pipi at bingi... at patuloy pa rin yung b*lls licking...

ung iba iniignore tong thread, di nila alam ito ang susi ng tagumpay natin.... though na-enlighten din ako dito sa thread na to, i must say this is a great lesson for us, to start and re-start again... hope so...

v_wrangler wrote:

Dyan ako natatawa pag binigyan mo ng isang advice tapos mangangatwiran ng kung ano ano. Kung prof ako at estudyante ko yan - bigyan ko agad ng singko. Hindi dahil sa panganagtwiran - kundi alam na pala na nya ang sagot eh bakit di pa inayos bago ipost...

hehe...basa mode muna ako dito...ang dami kong natututunan sa thread na ito....sir v, naalala ko yung teacher kong terror nung college..but yet ang dami nyang nasi-share....singko kung singko...

thanks for enlightening us!!!

I seldom comment because of this.

Most would want to be given a crit by someone who is more better than they are, than someone who is not as good or who only has the same skill set as that of the poster.

They go asking for "c and c" and when given an honest critique by someone, the go out reasoning to the point that the sort of berate the one who gave the comment. Case in point, would be, that siopao case. He was giving an honest to goodness critique, and the threadstarter started defending himself as if he was one of the best in the scene.

Most of the newer batch probably are not familiar with the almighty siopao. Thinking he was probably some new guy who just discovered CGP.

I guess until we humble ourselves and learn to listen and accept honest crits from our fellow members, we will be stuck up with the same bad habits, routines, and what not, and we will never be at par with most of the others.

naku huli na naman ako ! maganda to sir bokkins . yes , so far halos kasi lahat is trying to be defensive in anyway, di mag react ng negative to a comment .di naman kasi lahat ng members eh magka level ng age ,experience, and educational attainment someone will feel bad if youll gonna comment like this and that !wala din lasa ang comment na walang kunting biro or spice ika nga to keep the good bond between members , for me those mentioned pointers are all good ..kaya tayo may moderators di ba?if any comments went to far , i think moderator's responsibility na ito.kung baga sa kainan "coke "adds life where as to a comment give what is deserve . minsan ako sa huli good work , or good job or keep it up ,but always my first comments are helpful notes to the guy and ill refrain i guess to the clouds advise na "pasensya na po" he he he, and the last words like "good work" maybe turn into sana makatulong ?..

Another wrangler advice is to forget the personality in the criticism and focus on what has been said rather than who said them.

This takes out the "who you? Show me what you have done in the past" equation from the defense. Because it doesn't really matter if the person giving the crit is a 10 year old or a 100 year cg veteram. You'll even be surprised to know that the gretatest critic could be your next-door-neighboor who happens to know nothing about how you do it. That's because they have no personal interest, no bias. And the best idea comes out of the mouth of a person without fear. That is why I loathe, I get into your nerves, I stress like pointed needles so you'll hate me like a broken record. But hey that's just me.

They may be the greatest balasubas and the loudest of all the loudmouth this forum may offer but in the long run ask yourself if there was wisdom in the thoughts they share.

If you found one and was able to put them to good use spread the word and become a mentor yourself. If all they spit out was pure heresy then you do not need to listen to them the next time.

Hindi lang sa forum mayroong balat sibuyas, balasubas, o bad trip na critic o badtrip na mentoree. Sa totoong buhay lalo na kung ikaw ay propesyonal - mamemeet mo sila. Take this forum as your reality show to prepare you sa real life situations.

Para pag sa iyo na nakafocus ang camera - kaya mo ng magreact ng tama at higit sa lahat - ikaw ang pogi!

about the siopao case na yun. nung nabasa ko yung comment from that thread, i know already na bigtime yung nagcomment though bago sya sa site. may laman yung sinasabi. and it is a very honest opion;

"6. what i see most on architectural renders here are most foliage come from
archexteriors.. di ba kyo nagsasawa using the same old set of trees?
lets face it , most of us are archmodel/exterior/interior babies!"

this is very true. but yet, very defensive and reaction ng TS. for me, ayaw kong makakita ng ganun reaction lalo pa at aspiring talent ka sa 3d visualizing. señority naman di ba?saka be humble naman kasi nagka-time syang tignan at mag critic sa work.....

from a online dictionary:

critic - One who forms and expresses judgments of the merits, faults, value, or truth of a matter.

negative or positive we have to accept what is fact...unless na nambobola lang talaga yung ng critic......

I am sure Siops (just to illustrate) isn't commenting to stress seniority or to prove he is better than anyone else. That's the same line of thinking I personally have when I comment. But what can we do? We have to let go of our intrinsic filipino mentality " Kasi sinaktan ego ko eh" . We call this the victim mentality very common among pinoys. This is the API culture that brings us down and unconsciously controls our perception of our social class.

To be honest, it is so easy to see flaws when you see one, the problem is most of the times, we have a very low set of standards used to judge beauty or the absence of it. This should be changed in parallel to our skills and exposure. Papaano mo nga mapapataas ang panuntunan mo kung kokonti lang ang alam mo? So one must update his skills by learning and constant study in order to acquire a high level set of standards. To judge your own works and that of others asking for your opinion.

v_wrangler wrote:Another wrangler advice is to forget the personality in the criticism and focus on what has been said rather than who said them.

This takes out the "who you? Show me what you have done in the past" equation from the defense. Because it doesn't really matter if the person giving the crit is a 10 year old or a 100 year cg veteram. You'll even be surprised to know that the gretatest critic could be your next-door-neighboor who happens to know nothing about how you do it. That's because they have no personal interest, no bias. And the best idea comes out of the mouth of a person without fear. That is why I loathe, I get into your nerves, I stress like pointed needles so you'll hate me like a broken record. But hey that's just me.

They may be the greatest balasubas and the loudest of all the loudmouth this forum may offer but in the long run ask yourself if there was wisdom in the thoughts they share.

If you found one and was able to put them to good use spread the word and become a mentor yourself. If all they spit out was pure heresy then you do not need to listen to them the next time.

Hindi lang sa forum mayroong balat sibuyas, balasubas, o bad trip na critic o badtrip na mentoree. Sa totoong buhay lalo na kung ikaw ay propesyonal - mamemeet mo sila. Take this forum as your reality show to prepare you sa real life situations.

Para pag sa iyo na nakafocus ang camera - kaya mo ng magreact ng tama at higit sa lahat - ikaw ang pogi!

i respect your opinion sir roy ikaw pa eh takot na ako sa inyo noon pa man ha ha ha ha...sa yo lng naman talaga ako takot ehh ..and its because we pinoys are built in with respect to our elders " trait" manong or manang may attitude pa rin tayo na di natin maiiwasan coz most members are like this , i believe kasi sa sayin na "sometimes too much truth will also kill" ,but knowing you as well respected in this experty in cg i always pay attention to your comment lalo na sa mga comment mo sa mga magagaling dito always na inaabangan ko yan in fact may isa ako na comment na ,i think i remember post ni denzarki yun na scene na may sirang bahay na may tubig , and i just made a remark na that praises you kasi ikaw lng talaga pede ,kasi ala pang member na mas experience dito sa cgp kayo lng po sa pag kakaalam ko and i was there sa kabila when a moderator and the vertex wrangler argued , ha ha ha ha , i really remember kasi kurdaps made a conference when that happened , i did a research after that by digging those first threads of 3dp and found out whom should i pay respect to , the vertex or the moderator?but i found out upon my digging ,tinuturuan pa pala dati ang moderator na ito ni vertex long time ago , but how did thread went wrong ? coz the respect was lost !one cannot humble down as a moderator not minding those times he was still a neophyte whom was receiving ideas from you... yun lng ang nakikita ko ..sometimes its good to say the truth ...it takes time also to heal for those whom received it with pain.kaya for me defensive pa rin talaga ako..sir roy sa lahat ng senior dito takot talaga kami sayo..kayo lang po defender namin dito ...and we are happy na nandito kayo ..