How to criticize a work?! (A small discussion)

First topic message reminder :

Hi guys, I've been wanting to open this up dati pa. Gawin natin tong small discussion on how to properly criticize a work by colleagues to guide us into a better understanding of what we are doing.

Aside from the fact that we are super sensitive as artist, lalo na when it comes to our personal works. It is also important that we stress the points of improvement directly and objectively. Wala na sanang pasikot sikot pa o pasaring na tipong double meaning ang dating.

The goal of this thread is to develop a good sense of critic.

Below are some phrases or words that I personally do not like seeing in post: You may also share yours and suggests. Everybody is welcome to contribute.

1. parang may mali... or sa monitor ko lang. (what's the sense kung iba naman pala ang monitor mo di ba?)
2. nagtataka lang ako sa door (ground floor), parang grainy sya, o sa mata ko lang. (avoid na natin yung mga side comments na sa mata ko lang, hindi talaga nakakatulong sa pagimprove yan.)
3...

Ito naman ang mga suggestions ko on how to critic:
1. point out the mistakes
2. suggest solutions on how to improve them
3. explain why if you find anything odd
4. suggest references if you have time
5. go direct to the point
6. be objective
7. avoid unnecessary comments
8. avoid using local dialects for everyone to benefit from the discussions

Sa thread na to, sana maimprove natin ang pagcritic. Yung mga compliments naman, hayaan na muna natin, these are ego boosters which I have observed will help improve a persons mood. a happy mood means good everything.

v_wrangler wrote:Another wrangler advice is to forget the personality in the criticism and focus on what has been said rather than who said them.

This takes out the "who you? Show me what you have done in the past" equation from the defense. Because it doesn't really matter if the person giving the crit is a 10 year old or a 100 year cg veteram. You'll even be surprised to know that the gretatest critic could be your next-door-neighboor who happens to know nothing about how you do it. That's because they have no personal interest, no bias. And the best idea comes out of the mouth of a person without fear. That is why I loathe, I get into your nerves, I stress like pointed needles so you'll hate me like a broken record. But hey that's just me.

They may be the greatest balasubas and the loudest of all the loudmouth this forum may offer but in the long run ask yourself if there was wisdom in the thoughts they share.

If you found one and was able to put them to good use spread the word and become a mentor yourself. If all they spit out was pure heresy then you do not need to listen to them the next time.

Hindi lang sa forum mayroong balat sibuyas, balasubas, o bad trip na critic o badtrip na mentoree. Sa totoong buhay lalo na kung ikaw ay propesyonal - mamemeet mo sila. Take this forum as your reality show to prepare you sa real life situations.

Para pag sa iyo na nakafocus ang camera - kaya mo ng magreact ng tama at higit sa lahat - ikaw ang pogi!

i respect your opinion sir roy ikaw pa eh takot na ako sa inyo noon pa man ha ha ha ha...sa yo lng naman talaga ako takot ehh ..and its because we pinoys are built in with respect to our elders " trait" manong or manang may attitude pa rin tayo na di natin maiiwasan coz most members are like this , i believe kasi sa sayin na "sometimes too much truth will also kill" ,but knowing you as well respected in this experty in cg i always pay attention to your comment lalo na sa mga comment mo sa mga magagaling dito always na inaabangan ko yan in fact may isa ako na comment na ,i think i remember post ni denzarki yun na scene na may sirang bahay na may tubig , and i just made a remark na that praises you kasi ikaw lng talaga pede ,kasi ala pang member na mas experience dito sa cgp kayo lng po sa pag kakaalam ko and i was there sa kabila when a moderator and the vertex wrangler argued , ha ha ha ha , i really remember kasi kurdaps made a conference when that happened , i did a research after that by digging those first threads of 3dp and found out whom should i pay respect to , the vertex or the moderator?but i found out upon my digging ,tinuturuan pa pala dati ang moderator na ito ni vertex long time ago , but how did thread went wrong ? coz the respect was lost !one cannot humble down as a moderator not minding those times he was still a neophyte whom was receiving ideas from you... yun lng ang nakikita ko ..sometimes its good to say the truth ...it takes time also to heal for those whom received it with pain.kaya for me defensive pa rin talaga ako..sir roy sa lahat ng senior dito takot talaga kami sayo..kayo lang po defender namin dito ...and we are happy na nandito kayo ..

Hello Jumong, thanks for the comments. I value the culture of respect but in my opinion it would have worked during the old days but now, people use utang na loob and respect to elders in such a way that you'll puke. When 3dp was just starting, I tried to maintain a forum persona so that I could criticize without bias. I could sound like I wouldn't care less about you and spit out the most cruel criticism I could think of. I do not do that to show my hatred for the person, I do that to call attention. And while I may not be successful all the time, I have quite a few of my listeners who come back to me like they were feathers in my cap. Which is a blessing for me honestly.

In the real world, competition is tough. You'd need a heart made of steel. Kaialangan matigas ka. kailangan marunong kang tumanggap ng criticism. Otherwise, the tampororot in us will do more damage than good. As long as we serve somebody else - we will always be beholden to them. If you are a performer or a visual artist and have a clientele who bow on to your works without question - thats the time to diss crits. If not then listen, there is no alternative.

Speaking for myself. I have been in the business for clsoe to twenty years. I am not saying so to expect that people bow to me or that I am senior or that I am better than anyone else. As a matter of fact - I always believe that in our life as cg artists - time will come when somebody better comes up and takes your position. You only have two ways to react, you'll feel bad and fight it off or accept the defeat. I accept the defeat but I like to die out with grace. Pabalik na ako - papunta pa lang ang iba.

When I say pabalik na, I already had my share of glory and fun - I want to do something else soon and what better way to end it up with class than to share what I knew. I am sure that there's a lot out there thinking the same way. I am not here to compete, my competition is somewhere else. I just have to be a conscience when only a few dare become one.

A conscience, that's what we need otherwise we will all just become a cg spitting factory philippines. That will be sad. And it would be difficult for the likes of me to retire...

So don't fear me, because I care. If I didn't - I wouldn't spend my energies and time commenting about the work I see whenever I visit.

Young ones have bright ideas, old bums like cloud and me might have the experience. Mix them two and what a wonderful philippines there might be..

Baka tayo ma-OT so I'll stop talking about myself na

Ang galing naman ng thread na to sir boks... eye opener ito sa lahat ...
na pag nagpost ka hindi ka dapat nageexpect ng praise or good comment from the community, kundi good criticism dba sir vertex?

the vertex crits are really worth keeping.....! and this one really hit me most...! gamit na gamit ko...! kasi whenever I post nag ppm ako ke vertex para lang mag comment. nakakahiya man e, kapal muks na lang para mas matuto pa.... hehehe

and here are some samples:

http://www.cgpinoy.org/architectural-f3/a-green-living-t8652.htm?highlight=green+living

http://www.cgpinoy.org/architectural-f3/a-simple-and-small-chapel-t4562.htm?highlight=chapel

Thanks!

v_wrangler wrote:Hello Jumong, thanks for the comments. I value the culture of respect but in my opinion it would have worked during the old days but now, people use utang na loob and respect to elders in such a way that you'll puke. When 3dp was just starting, I tried to maintain a forum persona so that I could criticize without bias. I could sound like I wouldn't care less about you and spit out the most cruel criticism I could think of. I do not do that to show my hatred for the person, I do that to call attention. And while I may not be successful all the time, I have quite a few of my listeners who come back to me like they were feathers in my cap. Which is a blessing for me honestly.

In the real world, competition is tough. You'd need a heart made of steel. Kaialangan matigas ka. kailangan marunong kang tumanggap ng criticism. Otherwise, the tampororot in us will do more damage than good. As long as we serve somebody else - we will always be beholden to them. If you are a performer or a visual artist and have a clientele who bow on to your works without question - thats the time to diss crits. If not then listen, there is no alternative.

Speaking for myself. I have been in the business for clsoe to twenty years. I am not saying so to expect that people bow to me or that I am senior or that I am better than anyone else. As a matter of fact - I always believe that in our life as cg artists - time will come when somebody better comes up and takes your position. You only have two ways to react, you'll feel bad and fight it off or accept the defeat. I accept the defeat but I like to die out with grace. Pabalik na ako - papunta pa lang ang iba.

When I say pabalik na, I already had my share of glory and fun - I want to do something else soon and what better way to end it up with class than to share what I knew. I am sure that there's a lot out there thinking the same way. I am not here to compete, my competition is somewhere else. I just have to be a conscience when only a few dare become one.

A conscience, that's what we need otherwise we will all just become a cg spitting factory philippines. That will be sad. And it would be difficult for the likes of me to retire...

So don't fear me, because I care. If I didn't - I wouldn't spend my energies and time commenting about the work I see whenever I visit.

Young ones have bright ideas, old bums like cloud and me might have the experience. Mix them two and what a wonderful philippines there might be..

Baka tayo ma-OT so I'll stop talking about myself na

i salute you sir ! kahit di mo sabihin sa amin we respect you a lot ! we value so much you being here with us ,just like stryker said ,every comment from you is an honor for us .and thanks for the this reply and i learned from it ,and i realized na tama kayo .we are entering a new age and ika nga fresh wine skin should be place with new wine.people are changing attitudes coz of the trend that we should go with ... salamat po again and sana marami members ang matuto dito ..

cloud20 wrote:@archkutachtkuhcahtkrh... err Jeff nalang; actually I for one almost always touch on the basics lang eh; composition, knowing where to put what, how shadows fall to make the scene more interesting, that sort of stuff. Foundations lang. If one can't even touch on the basics, what more of these subdivs multipliers global adaptive sampling sub pixel clamp etc etc etc?...
These, the basics, do not need a monster rig or the internet; just your garden variety sentido comun...

Welcome back from your lethargy Roy...

Aba kung ako makakatanggap nito sir mas matutuwa pa ako lalo..!hehehe..Isnt it those basics are the hardest part?And yeah,you dont need monster rigs to come up with good compo,its supposed to be residing in your head . Sabi mo nga sentido comun.hahahaha.!Naalala ko bigla lolo ko.He used to say those terms all time.
Those subdivs multipliers and global adaptives,sampling etc can be learned in a minute,you just need to type www.google.com and voila!Instant answers and instant samples..No practice needed..No imagination involve.And no sense of artistry requires.
For me,its really the other way around.

Mga member and moderators pwede bang sumali?

Ito naman ang mga suggestions ko on how to critic:
1. point out the mistakes
2. suggest solutions on how to improve them
3. explain why if you find anything odd
4. suggest references if you have time
5. go direct to the point
6. be objective
7. avoid unnecessary comments
8. avoid using local dialects for everyone to benefit from the discussions

by Bokkins

I think the above is all great. I think you guys have to set rule with how to reply on the comment also. So bothways sya. Para wala ng silly reply to comment. given example ''noted". Lets be creative also and honest about our own mistake.

I just have one thing on my mind, can you guys imagine if all of us with no exception can output a very good renders and what we see on the gallery are all perfect renders? Is it impossible or possible?

How can we achieve this kind of thing. I think this is the ultimate of the reason why we comment on things or why people tend to share what they know to others so that others can learn. Or even make a tutorial.

How and how. I leave the rest to you guys.

Pardon guys, I know I am just new on this forum but this might help.

v_wrangler wrote:
Young ones have bright ideas, old bums like cloud and me

buti wala ako....

nomeradona wrote:

v_wrangler wrote:
Young ones have bright ideas, old bums like cloud and me

buti wala ako....

ha ha ha ha ha pareho lng level natin bro ,sila dalawa mas matanda .... ha ha ha ha

Bakit walang comment dito yung mga mahilig mag comment ng pangkaraniwan at mga tinamaan..isa eto sa pinakaimportanteng topic ah.. karamihan mga veteran lng mga nagcomment dito sa thread na ito.... BE INVOLVE sa importanteng topic

theomatheus wrote:Bakit walang comment dito yung mga mahilig mag comment ng pangkaraniwan at mga tinamaan..isa eto sa pinakaimportanteng topic ah.. karamihan mga veteran lng mga nagcomment dito sa thread na ito.... BE INVOLVE sa importanteng topic

let's not push them dude.... baka magreklamo ka pag sumagot dito ng "post more" , "nice visualization" , "galing mo master"....

Agree with master Galaites07...

And now that this "small discussion" turned out to be an "epic" one, after many long explanation, story telling and a number of testimonials, this whole discussion could be summarized by what master Bokkins has said earlier...

1. point out the mistakes
2. suggest solutions on how to improve them
3. explain why if you find anything odd
4. suggest references if you have time
5. go direct to the point
6. be objective
7. avoid unnecessary comments
8. avoid using local dialects for everyone to benefit from the discussions

We members should consciously make an effort to change for the better...

Tip ko naman sa mga baguhan, wag atat mag-comment.... take time na tumingin-tingin sa gawa ng mga masters, dito sa CGP at lalo na sa mga foreign CG sites, pag-aralan, suriin... hopefully you'll develop a good critical eye... at good appreciative eye...
Anchor your comments, observation, criticsm at pati compliments and appreciation with the "truth" or least with the obvious, that way you won't get wrong...

Hi guys, newbie here pasingit kunti...ive been following this thread for a while. ok yung takbo ng thread and I understand the objective that when you do critiques, all we want is straight honest to goodness and direct to the point answers. now lets observe American Idol, youve got 3 judges one is a sharp shooter (simon) , yung isa mahilig magpasikot sikot(paula), n yung huli astig kung sumagot(randy). kung kunyare puro simon or randy nalng yung judge, what will you feel? although you have established uniformity pero kulang parin, are we gonna take this critiques way too seriously? to the point we will have to limit what we want to say.

tsaka we are from different character and different behavior A kiss ass comment to others might just be a simpleng acknowledgemnt lang nung nagpadala, a simpleng comment from a critique will sometimes be an assault to the guys credibility. Again no one can classify this from that kasi, tao lang tayo. everybody is entitled to his/her own observation and well, comments. take a look at cgtalk 11secondclub, highend3d, our very own cgpinoy and among others, they were made on the norms establishing a social connection in a virtual world to people who share the same interest, hobbies or profession. I dont think this was made for the main purpose of learning lang. so what's wrong with loosening up? every work you see try to acknowledge man lang yung pinaghirapan niya. try to see what's good with it.

I agree with the 8 points of properly critiquing one's work, but then again these are just the proper way but not the right way
There are many ways to impart wisdom, a sharp barb comment is one, and a simpleng tagay is another one.

cheers,

Houdini

Hindi lahat ng magaling ay magaling at hindi lahat ng hindi magaling ay wlang alam...iisa lang ang dapat isa alang alang ng bawat pumuna sa mga gawa o nakikita ng bawat isa sa katulad ng elektronikong talaan ng mga kasayanan o pagpapakita ng bawat anking galing o talino sa paglikha ng kanilang mga obra o pulidong trabaho sa bawat antas ng kasanayan..Huwag mong pansin ang pumupuna sa sayo bagkus tulungan mo sila hindi ko kailangan ang mamagaling ang kailangan ko ay ang may mga sakit....

19BASTE67 wrote:Hindi lahat ng magaling ay magaling at hindi lahat ng hindi magaling ay wlang alam...iisa lang ang dapat isa alang alang ng bawat pumuna sa mga gawa o nakikita ng bawat isa sa katulad ng elektronikong talaan ng mga kasayanan o pagpapakita ng bawat anking galing o talino sa paglikha ng kanilang mga obra o pulidong trabaho sa bawat antas ng kasanayan..Huwag mong pansin ang pumupuna sa sayo bagkus tulungan mo sila hindi ko kailangan ang mamagaling ang kailangan ko ay ang may mga sakit....

where's the catch? dude paki-elaborate... kahit tagalog na di ko pa din naintindihan... wag mo sadyaing laliman ang tagalog.. mas lalong di naintindihan... IMHO...

ERICK wrote:

19BASTE67 wrote:Hindi lahat ng magaling ay magaling at hindi lahat ng hindi magaling ay wlang alam...iisa lang ang dapat isa alang alang ng bawat pumuna sa mga gawa o nakikita ng bawat isa sa katulad ng elektronikong talaan ng mga kasayanan o pagpapakita ng bawat anking galing o talino sa paglikha ng kanilang mga obra o pulidong trabaho sa bawat antas ng kasanayan..Huwag mong pansin ang pumupuna sa sayo bagkus tulungan mo sila hindi ko kailangan ang mamagaling ang kailangan ko ay ang may mga sakit....

where's the catch? dude paki-elaborate... kahit tagalog na di ko pa din naintindihan... wag mo sadyaing laliman ang tagalog.. mas lalong di naintindihan... IMHO...

Erick talaga oo, hayan o, ang kailangan daw niya ay ang mga may sakit... Baka nurse ito?...

cloud20 wrote:

ERICK wrote:

19BASTE67 wrote:Hindi lahat ng magaling ay magaling at hindi lahat ng hindi magaling ay wlang alam...iisa lang ang dapat isa alang alang ng bawat pumuna sa mga gawa o nakikita ng bawat isa sa katulad ng elektronikong talaan ng mga kasayanan o pagpapakita ng bawat anking galing o talino sa paglikha ng kanilang mga obra o pulidong trabaho sa bawat antas ng kasanayan..Huwag mong pansin ang pumupuna sa sayo bagkus tulungan mo sila hindi ko kailangan ang mamagaling ang kailangan ko ay ang may mga sakit....

where's the catch? dude paki-elaborate... kahit tagalog na di ko pa din naintindihan... wag mo sadyaing laliman ang tagalog.. mas lalong di naintindihan... IMHO...

Erick talaga oo, hayan o, ang kailangan daw niya ay ang mga may sakit... Baka nurse ito?...

diyos ba to? parang galing sa lumang bibliya ung mga sinabi nya... ulit ulitin ko mang basahin.. di ko talaga ma gets? slow talaga ako...

ayun sa aklat ng mga makalumang kasabihin na ang tanging iminumungkahi nito bagamat sa napakalalim at napakasalimuot na pagkaka-akda ay,

We All Need Critism for Improvement - i might be wrong

LET US ALL FILIPINO MAKE AN EFFORT TO HELP EACH OTHER FOR THE BEST

We members should consciously make an effort to change for the better- Silvercrown


(not yet a master but thanks, although my age suggest i should be,again thank you- sir Galaites07 nalang)

masisira na naman tong thread na to, nang-aaway na naman kasi kayo eh. Kaya ayaw makisali ng iba dito eh, kasi kayong mga old at oldies palaaway talaga.

Bos Boks... Kapag kase pinabayaan nating ganyan yang mga yan e hindi talaga magtitino mga yan (refering to master Baste's post)... E napakatino ng usapan bigla ba namang papasok ng ganyan nagpapaka trying hard e sablay din naman sa huli. Aminado po ako pala away ako pero dun lang naman sa mga nagtatanga-tangahan ikaw ba naman makakbasa ng ganyan di nyo po ba aawayin? Para sa inyo po ba bos Boks nakakatawa lang po ba ito? Isang bagay na "yaan lang natin ang mga yaan okay lang yaan nagkakatuwaan lang huwag tayo masyado seryoso"? May nai-contribute po ba siya sa usapan?

Para sa akin po kase this is an assault on the sensitivity of the issue at hand. Ngayon naman kung kahit sa totoong buhay e ganyan talaga magsalita yan humihingi ako ng paumanhin sa kanya. Ngayon kung style lang yan eh I'm sorry, bulok ang style niya...

bokkins wrote:masisira na naman tong thread na to, nang-aaway na naman kasi kayo eh. Kaya ayaw makisali ng iba dito eh, kasi kayong mga old at oldies palaaway talaga.

ha ha ha ha ha,sir bokkins relax lng ! naglalambing lng cguro mga yan ! he he he... psssssssssssssssssst keep quite pls. naman back to serious ala naman patutsadang biro...ke ganda ganda na ehhh..relax lng mga tol!

just add some pala doon sa kay baste yap sir ! i admit mejo malalim lng talaga even i myself cant comprehend for its too deep .paki elaborate lng po cguro para maliwanagan kami sa sinabi nyo.

@ tito cloud - pareho pala tayo ng iniisip...
@ boss heneral jumong - kaw din pala di naintindihan...
@ boss bokkins - di dapat itolerate tong mga ganitong tao... parang nanggugulo lang...o may mai-comment lang?

yun actually ang point ko dun. baka nga naman ganyan magsalita talaga ang tao. hindi kasi natin pwedeng i-assume always based sa gusto natin iassume. It could otherwise and it's probable with the highest percentage na di natin matanggap.

Sa totoo lang, nahihirapan ako maging neutral knowing na ako din ay assuming all the time. so kung sa inyo lang ako papanig sa bawat comment, wala din patutunguhan ang usapan na to. While reading, I always weigh all possibilities, kahit ang pinakamalabo pa yan.

Nice thread...Nice read also..
Hirap tuloy sumingit..kaya basa mode...

sa totoo lang mahirap mag crit sa isang gawa lalo na mas magaling sayo.

Im an Oldie kaso still new to 3d kaya most of my crits were not that good..
But still trying to guide those who needs it without spoonfeeding them....

Kaya sa Mga Oldies na Guru salamat sa wisdom..
Im not ass-kissin...
Ill just continue helping....in the return sa mga good deeds nyo

"superbbbbbb!" http://www.cgpinoy.org/3d-animation-f57/lonely-town-t7819-45.htm

Comment ni master Baste yan sa isang thread. So is it safe to assume na hindi siya ganoon talaga magsalita? And if my assumption is correct, gawa gawa lang niya ang ganoong style? Tsaka at this day & age? Me ganoon pa ring magsalita? Generally speaking po yan ha...
I know you guys have to play safe. But not too much. Sometimes kailangan ipakita din ang ngipin.

And hindi ko po hinihingi na palagi kayong pumanig sa amin. Pumanig lang po kayo sa tama.

Not unless you want this forum to be called "Circus Graphics Pinoy"...

Mga sirs may napansin din ako sa critiques na di masyado professional tignan. Yun bang mga inayos na sentence pero mas mabuting naka bullet point na lang. Yung tipong "yung stairs bitin, pintura hindi maganda, ilaw madilim." Ewan ko lang sirs pag ganyan tingin ko mas appropriate na either full sentences na lang or bullet points na lang. ^^

Side note: eheh guilty din ako sa mga maling pag critique... kaya well-placed thread

mukhang malaki talaga ang galit mo kay baste bro ah. I get your point now. Tuloy nalang natin ang discussions.