LWF Poll

First topic message reminder :

I am always curious about who use this technique, if you do not know what LWF means, please choose either answer #2 or #3.

mushroom wrote:

v_wrangler wrote:Mush, the washed out look happens when the gamma is accidentally applied twice to the bitmaps. Just make sure that the textures are read as 2.2 gamma, you can do this by making sure the input gamma is set to 2.2. via the gamma preferences.

When loading bitmaps make sure that the gamma is set to use " USe system gamma" or even you even want to make sure, "Override gamma" and set to 2.2.

opo i have followed these steps - my old bitmap settings have output overrides - i adjust the curves to be darker than usual to avoid blownout highlights. ( i always render with exponential settings BTW ) with LWF i used input gamma and all textures are set to use system gamma (2.2).

the washed out look occurs because majority of my "greys" have become lighter than previous, and the reflection values as ryancoy pointed out have become too high for LWF. arigato gozaimasu

yes, always remember that when using lwf, EVERYTHING that uses a gray scale value will be affected. whether it be reflection, refraction, falloff, noise map, mix map, etc. Just keep in mind that you now have a new gray scale and you just need to get used to using it.

for older scenes being converted to LWF, solid colors will be different as well, the colors will be off, 2 ways to deal with this is use PS to generate a small uncompressed tiff file of the solid color using the old file to get the RGB values and use it as a map, or us the color correct plugin and place a gamma value of 2.2 to adjust the solid colors gamma value. for standardization, it would be advisable to use a TIFF color swatch if you are starting from scratch. this way there is very little room for inconsistency errors.


LWF

torvicz wrote:

LWF wrote:

mushroom wrote:thereby .. amen to LWF's sig:

once you go LWF - you never go back.

indeed!

glad to see you are now a believer

anyway i found the link in which alex roman says he uses LWF

http://www.evermotion.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=58359&page=5

read post #44 and #49

as for your renders in LWF looking flat, try a 0.5 secondary bounce multiplier in your vray indirect illumination dialog box. or just sparingly use filler area lights as you do not need as much filler lights anymore when using LWF, this also goes for vray skylight, a little goes a long way.


LWF

Count me in dude!

I was once a non-believer. (read from the start of this thread). but not anymore.
LWF brings the real color to your scene.

Thanks dude LWF for starting the thread and dude mush for the very good demos.

And yes!, Once you go black, (I mean LWF) you never go back! ( sobrang dilim na pag bumalik ka e!) hahaha

its great that you now see the "light"

i know we had our little disagreements at the start, but ika nga, "if you are going to make an omelette you will need to break a few eggs". i started this thread almost a year ago out of just shear curiosity on who was using this method. although it was not my original intention to go into in-depth explanations of LWF, in retrospect I am glad that the thread I started was able to positively contribute to this community of CG Pinoy artists.

LWF

me too, count me in! thanks for this very useful thread. it's getting clearer now!

LWF wrote:

yes, always remember that when using lwf, EVERYTHING that uses a gray scale value will be affected. whether it be reflection, refraction, falloff, noise map, mix map, etc. Just keep in mind that you now have a new gray scale and you just need to get used to using it.

for older scenes being converted to LWF, solid colors will be different as well, the colors will be off, 2 ways to deal with this is use PS to generate a small uncompressed tiff file of the solid color using the old file to get the RGB values and use it as a map, or us the color correct plugin and place a gamma value of 2.2 to adjust the solid colors gamma value. for standardization, it would be advisable to use a TIFF color swatch if you are starting from scratch. this way there is very little room for inconsistency errors.


LWF

to add, this includes, bumps and displacement maps (thats why they look better in LWF) as well...
The use of swatches in place of solid colors is a good thing. You can also use vraycolor map which has a gamma dial in place.

For newer releases of vray, there is also a LWF switch that you can use to instantly adopt old fashoined-no-gamma scenes. Haven't used it though.

v_wrangler wrote:

LWF wrote:

yes, always remember that when using lwf, EVERYTHING that uses a gray scale value will be affected. whether it be reflection, refraction, falloff, noise map, mix map, etc. Just keep in mind that you now have a new gray scale and you just need to get used to using it.

for older scenes being converted to LWF, solid colors will be different as well, the colors will be off, 2 ways to deal with this is use PS to generate a small uncompressed tiff file of the solid color using the old file to get the RGB values and use it as a map, or us the color correct plugin and place a gamma value of 2.2 to adjust the solid colors gamma value. for standardization, it would be advisable to use a TIFF color swatch if you are starting from scratch. this way there is very little room for inconsistency errors.


LWF

to add, this includes, bumps and displacement maps (thats why they look better in LWF) as well...
The use of swatches in place of solid colors is a good thing. You can also use vraycolor map which has a gamma dial in place.

For newer releases of vray, there is also a LWF switch that you can use to instantly adopt old fashoined-no-gamma scenes. Haven't used it though.

hmmm...! if you don't mind mga sir...! can you please ellaborate more? sa pagkakaintindi ko kasi dito... kelangan pati colors naka 2.2? am i right? kasi i tried this LWF in my previous post and ok naman pero ung mga bitmaps lang ang ginalaw ko hindi ung mga diffuse colors? Salamat...!

Yes, if you read the post by LWF, you need to add gamma even to solid colors, to do that and i'd repeat his post - you may make swatches of colors or use vraysolid color as I explained.

If you use LWF, the greyscale values are corrected so it will appear you have more greys now. This change will affect any map that uses a greyscale input like bumps and displacements and falloffs etc.

Thanks sir V... on some enlightenment....! need to read more notes on LWF.!

@stryker - care to share which thread of yours showcases LWF? thanks

just Use Reinhard and set it on the lowest unit as much as it is in your desired light burn

jhames joe albert infante wrote:just Use Reinhard and set it on the lowest unit as much as it is in your desired light burn

this will defeat the purpose. A value of 1 means its LWF, if its zero (0), then its reinhard. Anything in between will be a mixture of the two mapping.

been using LWF for 2 years now.. and i never did go back.. i tried.. but decided its easier with LWF... it hurts my eyes to see the materials editor in its default settings also. too dark xD

thanks to LWF for starting this topic, at sa lahat ng nag respond, salamat po mga sirs.. everything's clear now..

just like to add - i think the biggest impact of LWF to me is my visual perception.. didn't realize my renders were too damn dark and contrasty then

How about using LWF in LED monitors? have someone encountered yet?

LCD or LED? Haven't heard of somebody computing via low res LED...

If you are talking about LCDs, hardware calibrators are able to tune them just like your regular monitors..

v_wrangler wrote:LCD or LED? Haven't heard of somebody computing via low res LED...

If you are talking about LCDs, hardware calibrators are able to tune them just like your regular monitors..

Actually it was still an LCD type display but lit at the back with this new technology using LED lighting, thus the monitor shows brighter outputs & rich color displays.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/led-behind-the-lcd-understanding-led-backlit-hdtvs/

Some new releases of laptops are running now with this type of technology & using LWF to it might give a different result? Anyhow

well i have yet to know.

My hardware calibrators doesn't have presets for LEDs. Either its a CRT, LCD or Projector Screen. So I do not know how to manage that. But calibrators are simply checking in for color signals. If they can pick it up and there's control for brightness, contrast, RGB in the monitors, then I do not see why not.

ako po sir LWF user ako! hehehe

Someone PMed me and asked me a question about Linear Work Flow, since the answer might benefit a few other people I have decided to post the answer here:

kieko wrote:hi sir..
i started trying LWF and im having fun on it..
but i do have some concerns.,

but first to give you an idea of what i have done.,
of course, i set my preference on gamma 2.2, my input material is set 2.2 (so i will not manually overide it everytime i put materials) and my output remains at 1.,both 2 boxes there (the apply material thing) were checked..

on my render settings, VFB is on, color mapping is set to linear multiply., and i use the srgb of VFB and save the image on 2.2 gamma..

in short, doesnt have problem till i merge some evermotion cars.,
i notice their colors fade, its like they were desaturated.

what seem to be the problem here?

are there some tehniques in merging 3d models in LWF?

thanks in advance..

Kieko,

The answer to your question is that when you change the LUT or Gamma to 2.2, it will change all your color selections in the Max Material editor. Look at the example below,



see that both material colors are set to , 128, 128, 128 but the one in LWF has a lighter color. This will happen to ALL MAX colors in your MAT editor, so values for reflection, refraction, falloff, or anything that uses the color selections will have to be adjusted manually when you use LWF. This does not apply though to to bitmaps as when you set the input bitmap color to 2.2 MAX will automatically correct the Gamma for you. Also when making a scene from scratch, you also do not need to correct any values as you will be making your materials from scratch.

The only problem you will have if you start merging models with materials made in a non-linear workflow. The evermotion cars is probably a good example. The only solution really is to manually change the colors so that they are darker and more saturated. You will also have to adjust the reflection values as these are usually based on the MAX colors as well.

sir LWF;
may napanuod ako na lynda.com mental ray video tutorial, and he defines linear workflow is the same as a camera na untouched ang gamma settings (gamma 1.0).
I also watched vrayguide alex
http://www.vrayguide.com/2010/11/lwf-linear-vs-exponential/
definition of lwf settings na 1.0 ang gamma settings with open exr filetype.

Medyo confused ako sa huling message mo sir lwf. Gamma 2.2 = lwf????
mali ba ang mga napanuod kong vid tuts sir lwf???

LOOKER wrote:sir LWF;
may napanuod ako na lynda.com mental ray video tutorial, and he defines linear workflow is the same as a camera na untouched ang gamma settings (gamma 1.0).
I also watched vrayguide alex
http://www.vrayguide.com/2010/11/lwf-linear-vs-exponential/
definition of lwf settings na 1.0 ang gamma settings with open exr filetype.

Medyo confused ako sa huling message mo sir lwf. Gamma 2.2 = lwf????
mali ba ang mga napanuod kong vid tuts sir lwf???

Watch the video from 2:14 - 3:14, the Gamma 2.2 I am referring to is set in the Customize > Preferences > Gamma and LUT tab.

The Linear vs Exponential that you are referring to where the Gamma SHOULD be set to 1.0 is in the vRay color mapping settings. So these are two different Gammas. Personally I set my color mapping to linear, 1,1,1 as what was mentioned in teh video as the "true" linear work flow.

i ve read somewhere that you should reload the maps of a non-lwf model merged into your LFW scene (like evermotion models which are mostly not set in a LWF fashion) inorder to set them lineary as well. this is the reason why evermotion models merged in a LWF scene are rendered pale because they are not set to LWF or their maps are not gamma corrected in their native form.

LWF wrote:Someone PMed me and asked me a question about Linear Work Flow, since the answer might benefit a few other people I have decided to post the answer here:

kieko wrote:hi sir..
i started trying LWF and im having fun on it..
but i do have some concerns.,

but first to give you an idea of what i have done.,
of course, i set my preference on gamma 2.2, my input material is set 2.2 (so i will not manually overide it everytime i put materials) and my output remains at 1.,both 2 boxes there (the apply material thing) were checked..

on my render settings, VFB is on, color mapping is set to linear multiply., and i use the srgb of VFB and save the image on 2.2 gamma..

in short, doesnt have problem till i merge some evermotion cars.,
i notice their colors fade, its like they were desaturated.

what seem to be the problem here?

are there some tehniques in merging 3d models in LWF?

thanks in advance..

Kieko,

The answer to your question is that when you change the LUT or Gamma to 2.2, it will change all your color selections in the Max Material editor. Look at the example below,



see that both material colors are set to , 128, 128, 128 but the one in LWF has a lighter color. This will happen to ALL MAX colors in your MAT editor, so values for reflection, refraction, falloff, or anything that uses the color selections will have to be adjusted manually when you use LWF. This does not apply though to to bitmaps as when you set the input bitmap color to 2.2 MAX will automatically correct the Gamma for you. Also when making a scene from scratch, you also do not need to correct any values as you will be making your materials from scratch.

The only problem you will have if you start merging models with materials made in a non-linear workflow. The evermotion cars is probably a good example. The only solution really is to manually change the colors so that they are darker and more saturated. You will also have to adjust the reflection values as these are usually based on the MAX colors as well.

thanks..ill just manually edit the materials of the cars..
more power

If you want a simple explanation about Linear Workflow and its settings...

Here's the link... http://www.davidfleet.com/tutorials/linear-workflow

The easiest way to learn LWF..

its a a hard technique to master this technique ...a lot of manual setting for the colors....specially if your using 3dmax 2011 theres no color correct yet available. so i stay with 2009 with the reinhard way

setting the exponential colormapping with adjustment of 2,2,1 the normal way will give you near high gamma result when using lwf 1,1,2.2 .the best setting is still with the renderers eye.!!!! its your judgment of true lighting exposure no matter what setting you use ,it always varies from scene to scene