Need some serious C&C

I need some comments and criticism regarding this:

Project Rendering base from Rust Rivet on Vimeo.

Hi; magandang araw sa lahat. Seldom poster, mostly lurker here.

I need some input regarding the rendering and animation. I'm currently working on my Reel, however time really is in short supply. I can only work on this for about 2 hours a night, 4 hours Saturday, whole day Sunday. As you can see, I'm already risking my social life...

As such, I need to see if anyone can suggest anything regarding rendering and animation to make the production quicker and easier. The above vid is the quality I'm currently aiming for.. All of the elements/layers for a single character is rendered above, so this is going to be my reference for the rest of the short film. There are some intersections din; pero don't mind it as this is just for reference.

Here are the relevant details:
-3D Studio Max, Vray, AfterEffects
-Hair is planar with opacity, rendered in Scanline
-Resolution: 800x800, 30 fps
-Adaptive DMC, Adaptive .85, threshold .02
-HDRI reflection override
-Rendertime: 2 mins
-Motion Blur via Velocity element
-No Global Illumination (Vray Lights + Spotlight)

I did my best to get my rendertime to be as low as possible per character, however there might be ways to keep the rendertime while upping the quality a bit. As you can see, medjo problem ang noise as for now. Anyone who can suggest Vray settings for Animation?

This is animated by hand; I am hoping to keep the current detail (minus the intersections, of course), but I may need a few pointers, regarding streamlining the workflow, from those who animate a lot. Kasi nakakapagod; staring at all the small details and such..

Anyway, the overall animated short is going to be in the range of 2 minutes upwards. 2 characters.. this one, plus a robot.. maybe will post him later din; I'm revising him pa. Environment will be really simple.. Just a metallic floor, plus a maintenance bay for the robot. The BG will just black out.. I'm not really fond of doing environments.

I'm well into the production but less than 1/5th of the way done. I'll really appreciate helpful advice and comments.. I want to finish the reel by the end of the year; gusto ko na lumipat ng environment...

Thanks a lot to those who are willing give input.. feel free to ask din regarding anything.

-Mark

That's a long way to go sir..anyway, i am not really familiar with this workflow, since i still need to study.

Maybe team mushroom or sir vertex can give you some pointers on this...

good luck.

Thanks for the luck-wish.

But yeah, i hope someone can help out.

I'll be posting hi-res images of this character later on, maybe mga CGpinoys can give feedback regarding her din.

im sure sensei vertex will be up in a jiffy.

ill reserve my comments for later (though im not really qualified in this line of CG, im still grappling with the workflow too).

I guess you really need to learn a new workflow. Mahirap tong ginawa mo dito, I can imagine, kung inisa isa mo nga. Anyway, you're successful on your output. You just need to learn a better and faster workflow for you to create more animations. Good luck!

Thanks sa good luck, pero it doesn't take luck only para makatapos ng projects. nakakadisappoint naman; suggestions lang hindi willing magbigay? paumanhin pero hindi talaga nagbunga yung effort ko na humingi ng kahit kaunting sagot sa inyo. hinanakit ba? anyway..

sige pagbutihan nyo mga sarili nyong proyekto. good day.

RustRivet wrote:Thanks sa good luck, pero it doesn't take luck only para makatapos ng projects. nakakadisappoint naman; suggestions lang hindi willing magbigay? paumanhin pero hindi talaga nagbunga yung effort ko na humingi ng kahit kaunting sagot sa inyo. hinanakit ba? anyway..

sige pagbutihan nyo mga sarili nyong proyekto. good day.

Rustrivet, Tokyo's taking a toll on ya?

You are on the receiving end, aren't you?
So you have no damn right to talk to people like that when you do not get what you want to hear from them.
You do not demand help, you beg for them diba?

First unsolicited advice , learn to accept negative critsicms or even the lack of it. You do not walk away from them but instead learn from them.

For the people here to get a clear grasp of what your intentions were, you must explain better than that. You've got to explain what you want to achieve. I am not saying about the talk about vray parametrs vs noise or compositing etc. I mean to say what it is that you want the people viewing your reel to feel? What is the prime goal of the exercise? Without it, people will remain speechless about your post and you scratching your head again like an idiot asking "why cgpinoy peeps disregard my fuc%$n questions" Everyone can probably give you an easy minute rundown on how to forever make DMC noise disappear i n your next lady-in-boots render but that won't make boredom disappear from the renders. A boring animation will still be boring even in a clear-crisp Mitnet rendition of vray 1.6 Sp10.ra. Now on with my show on your channel.

Questions:

1. Unang una, tell me what your goals are for the reel. You want that done so you'll have something to show to the next employer. Is that so? What do you intend to become?, an animator, a renderer, a designer? compositor? Or a Jack of all the above? It's like shoving the whole aspect of yourself down my throat. Sometimes, one has to realize that you can be good in one and bad in the other. But it does not mean you'll be bad forever. The good news is that, while it may take time - you can really be good in everything. It helps to focus the energies into the bad ones and fix it so that you have a basketful of goodies in due time.

Your answer in the above will help me (now you're helping me help you get an answer) determine if the end product you've just shown above will do you justice.

Let's discuss animation first for this installment:

(To help my advice make sense, it helps to picture the character as a black mass devoid of any rendering beauty, lighting or whatsoever. I am looking at it now as a simple silhoutte of a character

It needs work.　And I mean quite a lot of it. Now, it looks like a bag of motion flowed bip files gone awry. What the heck is he doing? He is doing lots of things at the same time. (Forgive the pun, the characters like you at this moment!) Break the motions into sets first and perfect each before overlapping (mixing) them. Because if you don't do so, it will be confusing and the audience will diss the suspension of disbelief right away.

The walk.. I never realized the characters a woman until I paused it. There's a certain ackward gait in her posture that made me think she was a man with boobies. Was it the design? Does her costume give her the mystery she must possess? Does it enhance her femininity yet make her look like a dangerous samurai-weilding warrior from the future? There are lots of questions you must first ask yourself to tie down the animation to who she is. Animation is not just about real vray rendering and textures. Its about characters who must be able to show why they act the way they do in their environment. Without it, your character will be like a dead zombie puppet soon to be forgotten or thrown in the bin by the supervising animator reviewing your reel. Have you tried skiing or walking with that hard plastic skii boots? That bootie looks like my son's skiing boots. They look cool but they make you constrain your movement and posture like your skiing on with bended knees. . And thats what making your character's gait look ackward. Imagine yourself a foot soldier like your character, try to run and fight for your life in the battle of tokyo with other samurais. I bet they'll run you over. That's because bended knees or heaviness in her lower legs contrain movement (even in reality). And it isn't sexy!

The bottomline is and its not just for animation or design; Everything must be there for a reason. Your colors, your form your structure. Form must complement function. If you do not carefully plan them out and make them work together, your character no matter how cool your composite are, will look fake, boring and will not win the audience's attention.

Now on with the animation:

1. TA-ME. If you've worked to learn in Japan, you'll know this by now. ANTICIPATION. Its like holding the energy for a few seconds before releasing it. Whatever you do, you'd need to make the viewers aware of what the character is about to do. Its like:


A "WALK. GRIPS KATANA. PAUSE. STRIKE.PAUSE. STRIKE.STRIKE.STRIKE. PAUSE. PUTS KATANA BACK. PAUSE. WALK.WALK.WALK"

(There's MERIHARI. There's rhythm in the above. It's more interesting and caring)

Now what you have is:

B "RAMPOSEWALKGRIPSTRIKEWEILDROTATESTRIKEBACKRAMPPOSE.STOP"

(Whathaveyougothere??!)

Now which one do you think gives the audience the luxury of figuring out what the character is about to do, and is doing?


Thats all the time I got for today. Will continue tom with all the other aspects.

Second part:

Here are the relevant details:
-3D Studio Max, Vray, AfterEffects
-Hair is planar with opacity, rendered in Scanline
-Resolution: 800x800, 30 fps
-Adaptive DMC, Adaptive .85, threshold .02
-HDRI reflection override
-Rendertime: 2 mins
-Motion Blur via Velocity element
-No Global Illumination (Vray Lights + Spotlight)

I did my best to get my rendertime to be as low as possible per character, however there might be ways to keep the rendertime while upping the quality a bit. As you can see, medjo problem ang noise as for now. Anyone who can suggest Vray settings for Animation?

This is animated by hand; I am hoping to keep the current detail (minus the intersections, of course), but I may need a few pointers, regarding streamlining the workflow, from those who animate a lot. Kasi nakakapagod; staring at all the small details and such..

I can propbably say a thing or two about noise in animations or the use of e-light + directlights or the senselessness of 800 square resolution vs SD size etc etc but they will not make sense because I feel there are more pressing issues that needs to be addressed by yourself.

My general assessment from your post above:

You seem to be too focused on Packaging rather than Content. Wrong, if you are sending your reel to me.

I will not care if its a stick figure but if it moves with careful attention to weight, staging, timing. I'd get you onboard right away.
If you want to show your capabilities with regards to modeling, then show a modeling process instead. If you want to show your rigging expertise, then show the character moving a canned bip file or your own (if you know its good). If you want to show your rendering and compositing skills, then demonstrate that.

The problem with your showmanship is that, the good points in your skillset is trumpled upon by your inferiority. It is always best to acknowledge your weakness and hilight your strenghts. That trait in your reels will win in your favor.

If you still insist on the packaging with total disregard for the soul, then that is your choice, in the same way the choice to take a second look of awe and inspiration in your finished work relies mostly on the audience.

We will only be as good as the last render!

If that isn't serious C&C, I dunno what is. But it looks like attitude wins on this section. BAD attitude.
Too bad, just when Bentot is, how do I say it... Wound up (nakuwerdas)...

Ok this is good, this gives me a lot of areas to start on. But I already picked one; which is the Attitude one, of course.

Japan does get to some people in some ways. Lalo na, ang liit ng mundo; every day brings you the same people and all that. I know Vwrangler said that pag magtatagal dito, dapat makibagay.. but if you don't drink and you don't smoke and hindi ka mahilig sa anime, then that narrows the Pakikibagay part a lot. But that doesn't get me to the point that I troll off f-bombs and a full-spectrum rainbow of colorful language. That's not professional at all. I understand that forums that I'm not paying anyone for criticisms but it IS frustrating when you have no idea on what people think of your work when no one says a word on what you can do.

I've already asked Jon and Leo here on what they can say about my work so far, and they already gave suggestions that I'm working on, but we three are part of the same small world so it doesn't give me a lot of things to work with.

I'm gonna break post up to here for easier reading. On to the work..

Yes this is as good as you can get. It is not very professional. you hit it right in the head.

But allow me to correct your very quick gaijin visitorimpression of Japan, we aren't just about drinking and smoking. If you feel your world is becoming a bottleneck of information then you must be hanging out with a bad crowd. Observe, learn, study, watch. Itahashi, Jon, Jeff and all of the dieties you mentioned in the past were good not because they drank, smoked and watched animes wtih a bunch of akihabara buddies. They had talent, willingness and humility to learn, professionalism and the right opportunity.

"Seek, wait and ye shall receive but as you wait, remember that patience is a virtue."

Saying that Jonathan and Leo's suggestion is a small bit considering you see same thing everyday is total disrespect for their talent, skil land willingness to share to you. If I was still there I would have given you some real karate chops for serious shitsurei shit (that rhymes!)

Same world, out of this world, different world. They're all the same top value. You got to treasure them same level. Anyone who gives ya attention for free deserves your humble appreciation.

Now that we seem to be seeing same thing with attitude ekseks that doesn't really take a minute or two to fix, what about the other bus-load-o-points I raised?

I see what you're saying about what my clip wants to be. to be precise.. it's not a demo reel, but just a clip to show if the movements fit in with the character of the model, testing its rig, and if it looks interesting enough to warrant attention. you already said your answer for that. Perhaps i did not see that people are accustomed to seeing mostly-finished items posted.. the first clip is just a reference and a test by itself.

Anticipation.. My friend i sent this to for questions asked my why her attacks were a bit slow. That got me asking.. what attacks? ah, THOSE. Which weren't attacks at all, but just preparations for the sword flourishes (straightsword, I don't like katanas). Yes, from there on I understood that I animated her without being clear that she wasn't attacking. I now understand that I'd need a clearer definition on what the character is doing.

Regarding my animation, is it, in a clear context, Inferior? I do not find it to be, but vertex does say that it is. Which is a problem for me, because I find giving character and movement to 3D elements to be the most interesting part of CG. And, I am selling Animation as a main aspect of the reel-in-progress.

I used this clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOac7t4kSUI) as inspiration for the movement style. Admittedly mine wouldn't look as good (I'm guessing a lot of motion captures on the witcher's part) but does my way of making characters move (animating) not make the cut at all? Shoot me down now before I try flying later only to find my wings really don't exist.

I like heavily armored characters and dislike the booby, bare-skin design of contemporary female characters.. but I also like flashy moves with a lot of weight behind it.. not the anime-ish way of teleport slashes and whatnot.

Now that vertex mentioned that the boots does look cool, how would I unify the design with the movement? I'm currently making studies again, but I've no reference. I can't put on heavy boots and walk around and use that as ref; that may make her more manly than she already is.

sorry for the wall of text. because there's a bit more..

The design.. well, to be frank, I find myself lacking in design skills as of yet. But I also find myself lacking in time so I just went on and forged ahead and did my best with what I had. I started the design from the leg-up (which is why those parts look most developed.. i guess.

I've already perused the legions of examples on the net; I know there are a lot better but as for now I'm thinking of settling for this so that I can move on to telling a story with my characters. As such, I'm looking to see if there would be any quick (not necessarily) simple way to improve the design and make it more.. flavorful. Quick question.. is the color not good? That's the easiest I can change.

She's to be in a scene with a 2-meter high hammerbot but he's not yet textured. She needs to take hits, but not get hit at all for the most part. her non-katana straightsword is there to pierce armor, because curved swords are there to cleave flesh.. and there's not going to be any flesh on that robot.

Anyway a friend (Jon) suggested that I put some off-setting features on the torso armor.. I'm working on that.. Maybe a bolted-on chest piece or something similar; knife holster?

Ps to vertex: I think Jon and Leo to be amongst the best and tera-byte and I have absolutely no reason to not listen to them.. I've already asked them a hundred times, and made changes cause of their suggestions. I'm not underestimating their skill at all; so rest assured that i'm not disregarding them in any way. So far Jon says it's good, that's why I went online to find more input.

cloud20 wrote:If that isn't serious C&C, I dunno what is. But it looks like attitude wins on this section. BAD attitude.
Too bad, just when Bentot is, how do I say it... Wound up (nakuwerdas)...

It was frustrating waiting for a week and yes, I am a bit wound up cause of that. Pero it's because that people here have really great ideas.. and I need (to beg?) to hear those so I know if I'm moving in the right lane.

I'm appreciative of all the good luck wishes but real C&C is where the real gifts lie.

RustRivet wrote:I see what you're saying about what my clip wants to be. to be precise.. it's not a demo reel, but just a clip to show if the movements fit in with the character of the model, testing its rig, and if it looks interesting enough to warrant attention. you already said your answer for that. Perhaps i did not see that people are accustomed to seeing mostly-finished items posted.. the first clip is just a reference and a test by itself.

If you have written the above during your first post, i would probably have a different stance. Not that I am accustomed to seeing finished animations. I see an animation whether its a linetest or simply bipeds and I will say my piece about the animation. I saw an animation (renders are just the coatings) that needed work and I wil ltry to tell you what's wrong. The rig/skin seems to be fine.

Anticipation.. My friend i sent this to for questions asked my why her attacks were a bit slow. That got me asking.. what attacks? ah, THOSE. Which weren't attacks at all, but just preparations for the sword flourishes (straightsword, I don't like katanas). Yes, from there on I understood that I animated her without being clear that she wasn't attacking. I now understand that I'd need a clearer definition on what the character is doing.

people will have differnt interpretations of what a character might be doing. That's the essence of animation. And should be the first step in your workflow. Without you having a definition, you're audience will not have it either.

Regarding my animation, is it, in a clear context, Inferior? I do not find it to be, but vertex does say that it is. Which is a problem for me, because I find giving character and movement to 3D elements to be the most interesting part of CG. And, I am selling Animation as a main aspect of the reel-in-progress.

It can be improved. It is indeed inferior (at the current stage) if you want the vertex straight in your face impression of the work above. To test it out, render a black white silhoutte of the same animation and ask yourself if you can figure out what the chracter was doing. If you can, then it works. Unfortunately for me, I was confused. Ask yourself, is this my best? The answer to that will determine how your character will evolve from hereon.

I used this clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOac7t4kSUI) as inspiration for the movement style. Admittedly mine wouldn't look as good (I'm guessing a lot of motion captures on the witcher's part) but does my way of making characters move (animating) not make the cut at all? Shoot me down now before I try flying later only to find my wings really don't exist.

I've been shooting you since day one. Not that because you don't have wings, I'm saying you can have wings that fly heights like everyone. But you've got to practice and learn the basics. There are many principles of animation, look for the twelve. Your character lacks weight. timing and anticipation. It lacks so you have to fill them in. Make it possible.

I like heavily armored characters and dislike the booby, bare-skin design of contemporary female characters.. but I also like flashy moves with a lot of weight behind it.. not the anime-ish way of teleport slashes and whatnot.

Anything is possible in animation. You can have a 60 pound body gear but allow you to move with ease. The strange walk in your character gait, shows the weight of her gear so much its ackward to look at.

Now that vertex mentioned that the boots does look cool, how would I unify the design with the movement? I'm currently making studies again, but I've no reference. I can't put on heavy boots and walk around and use that as ref; that may make her more manly than she already is.

sorry for the wall of text. because there's a bit more..

See that you made her walk without allowing her to stretch on those legs, the arcs in the upper leg and lower leg during the time shes on full walk (open legs) makes her foot heavy. Stretch em out like catwalking models and you'l l see that the heavy boots won't look like its interfering. have you practiced making a wlak cycle?

Whats up with the post above. Was it reposted by Mark or by the mods?

To Mark or to whomever, I might have a different interpretation but by repeating the same questions over again, you might make me think all that was written before was nonsense. I hate wasting energies like you. If that is not the case could you explain so we can avoid confusion.You see, this is a problem for forums, were all faceless and we get judged only by the words you leave.

Mark, Have you got the reply to my lengthy thoughts about your animation, I'm itching to hear what you say.

@sir vertex: the new forum features now includes, displaying of the original topic of the poster at the top of every page. Hence the reason why you are reading what appears to be a repost of the TS topic, but in fact, it is not.

For your guidance...cheers!

Thanks Ed for that quick explanation.

First topic message reminder :

Is that first line above editable? If so, I'd prefer something more easier to understand for first time readers. Maybe something like:

" The following is an automated repost of the first message in this thread: "

I've carefully considered what you said about the walk.. I don't have a problem with walk/run cycles (Shirogumi accepts them just fine) but probably those gigantic kneepads are the defining factor right now.

As of last night, I was working on rigging the kneepads differently so she can walk with a more boardwalk gait.. You were right; I was focusing on showing the weight of those boots and didn't see that it made her look awkward. I'm now working on first giving her natural movements, and then adding the weightiness of the armor later.. that'd probably give more universally appealing results.

Also regarding what you said, that's probably I was skeptical of my own work.. I made her do things without a clear purpose. I'll keep that in mind.

I'm considering everything you posted; none of it was wasted. But we both tend to post lengthy answers so sometimes the timeframes overlap. Thanks a lot for your time Vertex; I'll post again when I have something to show.. Right now, clients have us running for deadlines again so it's going to be business as usual ..

RustRivet wrote:I've carefully considered what you said about the walk.. I don't have a problem with walk/run cycles (Shirogumi accepts them just fine) but probably those gigantic kneepads are the defining factor right now.

I do not know what walk cycle you were referring to but I am only looking at what you posted. I am sure and you can bet my 1 yen that I will not accept that as a deliverable because that will make me lose face. Neither do Shirogumi. Well, if you we're referring to that particular walk above and they'd accept that level then I do not know what has gotten to them. Tell me, you're just kidding.

As of last night, I was working on rigging the kneepads differently so she can walk with a more boardwalk gait.. You were right; I was focusing on showing the weight of those boots and didn't see that it made her look awkward. I'm now working on first giving her natural movements, and then adding the weightiness of the armor later.. that'd probably give more universally appealing results.

You know, start with the bareness of the rig minus whatever armor you have there. Any character stripped of clothing thats animated well will look well no matter what you make her put on. Its the walk, Mark, the walk motion.

Also regarding what you said, that's probably I was skeptical of my own work.. I made her do things without a clear purpose. I'll keep that in mind.

Thats the spirit.

I'm considering everything you posted; none of it was wasted. But we both tend to post lengthy answers so sometimes the timeframes overlap. Thanks a lot for your time Vertex; I'll post again when I have something to show.. Right now, clients have us running for deadlines again so it's going to be business as usual ..

I'm glad you're seeing the light. Goodluck and I look forward to an update.

Could you send me a bip and the figure files. I've taken so much interest in you I'd like to see your keyframes. And oh, don't wrorry about your work being plagiarized. I am a pro and I have other interests.

I was speaking to Matsumoto-san awhile ago, mentioned that you guys moving to another place. Don't forget to find a church nearby, you'll always need to find solace in this kind of work.

Hey to everyone.. I picked up suggestions along the way. Here's an update so far:

Rigging check from Rust Rivet on Vimeo.

To clarify..
I've left her unrendered because this is just a rigging check. I've modified the rigging point of the kneepads somewhat so as to minimize the jerking movements when she steps down.. Also, I've changed her gait to something nearer to how models walk; is this appropriate for her character? Please say so if it is overdone/underdone or whatever. She's supposed to be a cocky/cheeky duelist and it's a big thing for her movements to reflect that because there isn't going to be any dialogue.
I'll be writing down any suggestions in the time being since I've picked up some ideas on what to add to the model itself to make it more complete.. The shoulderpads in particular look tacked on.
..She does look like McDonald's sister without hair opacity, i know..

Vertex, are you still interested in getting the keyframes/fig for the old clip? If so, how would I send it? I'm not really concerned about being plagiarized since the keyframes are just for studying the rig and stuff.

Thanks for your time.

One tip. When you make line tests for skinning or loop checks, do not animate your camera because its hard to see. Use simple motions like extreme bends of joints in repetitions of at least three.

So far I could only see problem areas in the vest collar and the buttocks.

Did you animate the walk cycle? This is far way different from the previous one.

Yes, I requested the motion file and the figure file of the first animation you posted because I'd like to check the animation so I could give you detailed advice.

You may send the motion clip, bip file and fig file via vertexwrangler@gmail.com